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The problem is that EU needed to find a way to integrate existing Russian Federation as a neigbour, and not some "true Scotsman" Russia that only lives in your

The problem is that EU needed to find a way to integrate existing Russian Federation as a neigbour, and not some "true Scotsman" Russia that only lives in your imagination. EU didn't want to integrate with existing RF for a long list of reasons. "As much as we could" turned out tiny. And there was no political will on the EU side to expand it despite whatever Putin was doing prior 2014 or even 2011. So in the absense of these integrations designed to prevent wars and strife, we've got strife and wars, like how you get fender benders when driving on icy roads with summer tyres. The friction was insufficient and the thing lost control. I can see the prevailing attitude that integration with Russia was a "nice to have" thing which could be forfeited at any moment when Russia was deemed unworthy. But winter tyres are the must as temperatures drop below zero.

benterix 2y ago
Oh man I love the logic... The EU didn't want to change its standards related to not killing one's own journalists and so on so Putin had no choice but to start a war. I see this rhetoric very often. "He had to", "obviously he had no other choice". These are all false premises. He could not kill his own journalists but he chose to, for his own advantage. He could choose cooperation instead of war, but he wanted to be remembered in history books as the guy who brought not only Belarus but also Ukraine to his empire. Well, he will be remembered, but not exactly the way he hoped to.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mopsi 2y ago
    > it's about random unrealistic expectations placed on Russia that are not applied to other countries, in order to reject Russia. Not at all. Russia never adopted EU integration as an official government policy and never started meaningfully working towards it like everyone else in Europe. Just search Russian news channels for progress on fulfillment of Maastricht criteria or implementation of TFEU and look how little you'll find. EU membership was always something that they demanded to be handed to them, along with dominance over Eastern Europe, because Russia never let go of its imperialism and expectation of a special status. Even Russian liberals have hard time imaging Russia as an equal partner in the EU, with things like having merely 1 vote out of 28. Instead, Russia in the EU is imagined as an equal counterpart to the entire EU, which is a delusional expectation that will never be met. The window of opportunity for turning the country around in the early 1990s was brief, and instead of choosing the path to becoming a normal European country, you let the old nomenklatura recover and return to power and turn the country into a hermit kingdom, which is now in the third year of winning a three-day war, losing 1000 people a day and delivering two Afghanistans a month with no end in sight, as the rich sip wine on superyachts while you live in squalor. Putin does not deserve you, but you sure do deserve Putin if you choose to internalize his propaganda and adopt adversial view of Europe, which only serves the purpose of keeping the country firmly in the hands of Putin and his buddies from the security apparatus, at the expense of everyone else's quality of life. There is no objective reason why Russians couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as Norwegians, and yet here you are, slaves to a mediocre KGB apparatchik out of spite that Europeans don't revere you as much as you think you deserve.
    - thriftwy 2y ago
      Obviously I do not see any way for Russia to enter EU as a member state. Like Norway, as you said, it could only be integrated while being outside of the bloc. But, it would be a two-way road and there has to be EU goodwill to do so. But the truth is, I've not seen any concrete steps from the EU to enable that. I'm pretty sure that Putin's government was quite positive towards EU/USA up and until 2008 with its Munich speech. Russians saw nothing good from the EU and instead admitting that fact they are fed with offensive bullshit about dead journalists they have no business with. When Russians wanted to get rid of Putin in 2011-2012, EU and USA basically brought popcorn and did nothing. So, nothing happened and Putin remained in power, and had to double down on potential coups. Then he saw Maidan coup as an existential danger and had to make sure it doesn't end well.
      - mopsi 2y ago
        > But the truth is, I've not seen any concrete steps from the EU to enable that. With such attitude, Eastern Europe would not have joined the EU either. Do you think anyone in 1991 wanted to see Poland in the EU? Do you think anyone came to offer EU membership on a silver platter while the Poles were sitting on their asses and reminiscing about Rzeczpospolita? Of course not: it took 15 years of determined work to get there, first to convince the existing members that it was even a good idea to begin with. Even after the negotiations officially started, membership prospects were widely seen as distant and mostly theoretical. "Oh shit, it's really happening" set in only 1-2 years before the official accession in 2004. Things first changed very slowly, and then very suddenly. But Russia never took the first step of swallowing their pride and adpting a pragmatic approach to building relations in a constructive manner, so naturally the rest never followed. If you think that Poles and many others didn't feel humiliated and unfairly treated at many points along the way, then you're wrong, but the long-term results made it all worth it, and Poland has transformed from "that backward cousin-fucking potatoland in the East" into an integral and respected part of the EU. > When Russians wanted to get rid of Putin in 2011-2012, EU and USA basically brought popcorn and did nothing. It's funny to see how the narrative keeps shifting. When it's convenient, the EU and US are encircling and staging coups and posing existential danger, and when another story is more convenient, they are doing too little. It's always someone else's fault.

benterix 2y ago

Oh man I love the logic... The EU didn't want to change its standards related to not killing one's own journalists and so on so Putin had no choice but to start a war. I see this rhetoric very often. "He had to", "obviously he had no other choice". These are all false premises. He could not kill his own journalists but he chose to, for his own advantage. He could choose cooperation instead of war, but he wanted to be remembered in history books as the guy who brought not only Belarus but also Ukraine to his empire. Well, he will be remembered, but not exactly the way he hoped to.

thriftwy 2y ago
[flagged]
- mopsi 2y ago
  > it's about random unrealistic expectations placed on Russia that are not applied to other countries, in order to reject Russia. Not at all. Russia never adopted EU integration as an official government policy and never started meaningfully working towards it like everyone else in Europe. Just search Russian news channels for progress on fulfillment of Maastricht criteria or implementation of TFEU and look how little you'll find. EU membership was always something that they demanded to be handed to them, along with dominance over Eastern Europe, because Russia never let go of its imperialism and expectation of a special status. Even Russian liberals have hard time imaging Russia as an equal partner in the EU, with things like having merely 1 vote out of 28. Instead, Russia in the EU is imagined as an equal counterpart to the entire EU, which is a delusional expectation that will never be met. The window of opportunity for turning the country around in the early 1990s was brief, and instead of choosing the path to becoming a normal European country, you let the old nomenklatura recover and return to power and turn the country into a hermit kingdom, which is now in the third year of winning a three-day war, losing 1000 people a day and delivering two Afghanistans a month with no end in sight, as the rich sip wine on superyachts while you live in squalor. Putin does not deserve you, but you sure do deserve Putin if you choose to internalize his propaganda and adopt adversial view of Europe, which only serves the purpose of keeping the country firmly in the hands of Putin and his buddies from the security apparatus, at the expense of everyone else's quality of life. There is no objective reason why Russians couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as Norwegians, and yet here you are, slaves to a mediocre KGB apparatchik out of spite that Europeans don't revere you as much as you think you deserve.
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    Obviously I do not see any way for Russia to enter EU as a member state. Like Norway, as you said, it could only be integrated while being outside of the bloc. But, it would be a two-way road and there has to be EU goodwill to do so. But the truth is, I've not seen any concrete steps from the EU to enable that. I'm pretty sure that Putin's government was quite positive towards EU/USA up and until 2008 with its Munich speech. Russians saw nothing good from the EU and instead admitting that fact they are fed with offensive bullshit about dead journalists they have no business with. When Russians wanted to get rid of Putin in 2011-2012, EU and USA basically brought popcorn and did nothing. So, nothing happened and Putin remained in power, and had to double down on potential coups. Then he saw Maidan coup as an existential danger and had to make sure it doesn't end well.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      > But the truth is, I've not seen any concrete steps from the EU to enable that. With such attitude, Eastern Europe would not have joined the EU either. Do you think anyone in 1991 wanted to see Poland in the EU? Do you think anyone came to offer EU membership on a silver platter while the Poles were sitting on their asses and reminiscing about Rzeczpospolita? Of course not: it took 15 years of determined work to get there, first to convince the existing members that it was even a good idea to begin with. Even after the negotiations officially started, membership prospects were widely seen as distant and mostly theoretical. "Oh shit, it's really happening" set in only 1-2 years before the official accession in 2004. Things first changed very slowly, and then very suddenly. But Russia never took the first step of swallowing their pride and adpting a pragmatic approach to building relations in a constructive manner, so naturally the rest never followed. If you think that Poles and many others didn't feel humiliated and unfairly treated at many points along the way, then you're wrong, but the long-term results made it all worth it, and Poland has transformed from "that backward cousin-fucking potatoland in the East" into an integral and respected part of the EU. > When Russians wanted to get rid of Putin in 2011-2012, EU and USA basically brought popcorn and did nothing. It's funny to see how the narrative keeps shifting. When it's convenient, the EU and US are encircling and staging coups and posing existential danger, and when another story is more convenient, they are doing too little. It's always someone else's fault.