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> It always smells like chlorine and from what I googled apparently up to 4 milligrams per liter are regularly allowed in the US. Why is this a problem? Flavor

by radlad 3y ago

> It always smells like chlorine and from what I googled apparently up to 4 milligrams per liter are regularly allowed in the US. Why is this a problem? Flavor? This is certainly different than places like Mexico, where the tap water isn't potable. > We don't need to talk about the things that you cannot taste or smell and what happened in Flint. If we're talking about unknown unknowns, this is true of anywhere in the world.

weinzierl 3y ago
> "Why is this a problem? Flavor?" Yes, if it already smells after chlorine, how can I know what else is in there. If it was from a clean source, it would not need chlorine in the first place. > "If we're talking about unknown unknowns, this is true of anywhere in the world." No, water supply in Germany is closely monitored at the source, at the water works and even close to the user in apartment buildings and rental properties. Also, our water supply is not privatized, like in the US. A disaster like Flint could not happen here.
- ssl-3 3y ago
  If it already smells like chlorine, you can know what isn't in there: Living organisms that want to kill you.
  - weinzierl 3y ago
    That is why you monitor the water supply. It is done in my rented apartment by a company commissioned by the landlord and it is done daily at the water works. If there are to many living organisms they add chlorine and inform the public, which happens only every couple of years. The alternative is dead organisms plus a quite toxic substance in your water.
    - quickthrowman 3y ago
      > The alternative is dead organisms plus a quite toxic substance in your water. Chlorine being toxic in drinking water is your personal opinion. Your opinion is not shared by the people who are experts in drinking water treatment in the US. Chlorine kills microorganisms that aren’t filtered out in previous water treatment steps. Please cite some evidence that chlorine in drinking water is dangerous to humans at concentrations lower than 4mg/L.
      - weinzierl 3y ago
        The CDC says the TLV for chlorine is 1.5 mg/m3. Note, that this is per cubic meter and not per liter. So a TLV of 0,0015 mg/l vs 4 mg/l in US drinking water. Here is the source, as you requested: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/7782505.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/7782505.html And here the definition of TLV from Wikipedia: The threshold limit value (TLV) is a level of occupational exposure to a hazardous substance where it is believed that nearly all healthy workers can repeatedly experience at or below this level of exposure without adverse effects. So much for that, but it is only half the story. Chlorine is a gas and therefore volatile. The measured chlorine in the waterworks says little about the amount that ends up in your body. What it does though is, that it forms compounds with organic substances (the microorganisms it kills) in the water, which in turn can be toxic or carcinogenic. Instead of regulating the volatile chlorine it makes much more sense to regulate the harmful compounds, which is exactly what many European countries do.
- radlad 3y ago
  > No, water supply in Germany is closely monitored at the source, at the water works and even close to the user in apartment buildings and rental properties. Also, our water supply is not privatized, like in the US. A disaster like Flint could not happen here. I advise you look into the Flint water crisis, because your understanding doesn't sound accurate. The decision to change the source from one body of water to another was a municipal decision - made by the city's Emergency Manager (indicted on felony charges) - not one made by a private company.[0] The EPA (another governmental agency) mandates contaminate limits and testing. MDEQ (Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, another government agency) was not properly testing to federal requirements. Still, the issue was known by residents long before it was fixed, due to... private testing.[1] What happened in Flint was criminal negligence, but it had nothing to do with water supply being privatized (it wasn't), or a lack of monitoring requirements (although it's believed testing may have been manipulated... by government workers.[2]) [0] https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2014/04/closing_the_valve_on_history_f.html https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2014/04/closing_the_valve_o... [1] https://flintwaterstudy.org/2015/09/commentary-mdeq-mistakes-deception-flint-water-crisis/ https://flintwaterstudy.org/2015/09/commentary-mdeq-mistakes... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/21/us/flint-lead-water-testing-distortions.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/21/us/flint-lead... Edit: Here's a good place to start - https://mphdegree.usc.edu/blog/the-flint-water-crises https://mphdegree.usc.edu/blog/the-flint-water-crises Edit 2: Citations added.
  - weinzierl 3y ago
    I don't think it is a mischaracterization to say that privatization played a significant role in the Flint water crisis. For example The Intercept headlined "FROM PITTSBURGH TO FLINT, THE DIRE CONSEQUENCES OF GIVING PRIVATE COMPANIES RESPONSIBILITY FOR AILING PUBLIC WATER SYSTEMS".[1] That municipal decisions played an important role too, is - if anything - an argument for the thesis that the water supply in the United States should not be trusted and not against it. [1] https://theintercept.com/2018/05/20/pittsburgh-flint-veolia-privatization-public-water-systems-lead/ https://theintercept.com/2018/05/20/pittsburgh-flint-veolia-...
    - radlad 3y ago

by radlad 3y ago

weinzierl 3y ago

> "Why is this a problem? Flavor?" Yes, if it already smells after chlorine, how can I know what else is in there. If it was from a clean source, it would not need chlorine in the first place. > "If we're talking about unknown unknowns, this is true of anywhere in the world." No, water supply in Germany is closely monitored at the source, at the water works and even close to the user in apartment buildings and rental properties. Also, our water supply is not privatized, like in the US. A disaster like Flint could not happen here.

ssl-3 3y ago
If it already smells like chlorine, you can know what isn't in there: Living organisms that want to kill you.
- weinzierl 3y ago
  That is why you monitor the water supply. It is done in my rented apartment by a company commissioned by the landlord and it is done daily at the water works. If there are to many living organisms they add chlorine and inform the public, which happens only every couple of years. The alternative is dead organisms plus a quite toxic substance in your water.
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    > The alternative is dead organisms plus a quite toxic substance in your water. Chlorine being toxic in drinking water is your personal opinion. Your opinion is not shared by the people who are experts in drinking water treatment in the US. Chlorine kills microorganisms that aren’t filtered out in previous water treatment steps. Please cite some evidence that chlorine in drinking water is dangerous to humans at concentrations lower than 4mg/L.
    - weinzierl 3y ago
      The CDC says the TLV for chlorine is 1.5 mg/m3. Note, that this is per cubic meter and not per liter. So a TLV of 0,0015 mg/l vs 4 mg/l in US drinking water. Here is the source, as you requested: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/7782505.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/7782505.html And here the definition of TLV from Wikipedia: The threshold limit value (TLV) is a level of occupational exposure to a hazardous substance where it is believed that nearly all healthy workers can repeatedly experience at or below this level of exposure without adverse effects. So much for that, but it is only half the story. Chlorine is a gas and therefore volatile. The measured chlorine in the waterworks says little about the amount that ends up in your body. What it does though is, that it forms compounds with organic substances (the microorganisms it kills) in the water, which in turn can be toxic or carcinogenic. Instead of regulating the volatile chlorine it makes much more sense to regulate the harmful compounds, which is exactly what many European countries do.
radlad 3y ago
> No, water supply in Germany is closely monitored at the source, at the water works and even close to the user in apartment buildings and rental properties. Also, our water supply is not privatized, like in the US. A disaster like Flint could not happen here. I advise you look into the Flint water crisis, because your understanding doesn't sound accurate. The decision to change the source from one body of water to another was a municipal decision - made by the city's Emergency Manager (indicted on felony charges) - not one made by a private company.[0] The EPA (another governmental agency) mandates contaminate limits and testing. MDEQ (Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, another government agency) was not properly testing to federal requirements. Still, the issue was known by residents long before it was fixed, due to... private testing.[1] What happened in Flint was criminal negligence, but it had nothing to do with water supply being privatized (it wasn't), or a lack of monitoring requirements (although it's believed testing may have been manipulated... by government workers.[2]) [0] https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2014/04/closing_the_valve_on_history_f.html https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2014/04/closing_the_valve_o... [1] https://flintwaterstudy.org/2015/09/commentary-mdeq-mistakes-deception-flint-water-crisis/ https://flintwaterstudy.org/2015/09/commentary-mdeq-mistakes... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/21/us/flint-lead-water-testing-distortions.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/21/us/flint-lead... Edit: Here's a good place to start - https://mphdegree.usc.edu/blog/the-flint-water-crises https://mphdegree.usc.edu/blog/the-flint-water-crises Edit 2: Citations added.
- weinzierl 3y ago
  I don't think it is a mischaracterization to say that privatization played a significant role in the Flint water crisis. For example The Intercept headlined "FROM PITTSBURGH TO FLINT, THE DIRE CONSEQUENCES OF GIVING PRIVATE COMPANIES RESPONSIBILITY FOR AILING PUBLIC WATER SYSTEMS".[1] That municipal decisions played an important role too, is - if anything - an argument for the thesis that the water supply in the United States should not be trusted and not against it. [1] https://theintercept.com/2018/05/20/pittsburgh-flint-veolia-privatization-public-water-systems-lead/ https://theintercept.com/2018/05/20/pittsburgh-flint-veolia-...
  - radlad 3y ago