4 ms·

> This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. For C/C++ ho

> This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. For C/C++ hobbyists and Open Source developers, MSVC used to be the compiler of choice on Windows. The Ruby community has embraced mingw more and more, and I think everyone else will (and should) do the same. Breaks my heart because MSVC has good C++11 support. I don't think any professional will care about this. In fact, it's probably good news for them (us). Any barrier to entry means slightly less competition.

jasonkester 14y ago
Why is your heart breaking? The new version still supports c++, right? Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean you can't pay a little money for things. I have lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than computer programming. One surfboard costs more than you'll pay for a full VS.NET license. Over the 4 years this next version will keep you going, I'll go through thousands of dollars worth of rock shoes. A gamer will go through thousands of dollars worth of games. A mountain biker will replace his $1500 bike in that timeframe, and a snowboarder will rack up thousands of dollars in lift tickets and baggy trousers. All these things have in common that: A. They're enjoyable, and: B. They cost money. Programming computers is no different. If you want to do it, and there's a good new tool out that costs money, why would you not buy it?
- chc 14y ago
  They would probably be willing to pay a little money. $600 is not a little money for normal people. Pointing out that it's not a lot of money for rich people seems a little beside the point. I don't think anybody's all that worried about the wealthy.
  - jasonkester 14y ago
    I never said anything about rich/poor people. In fact, the hobbies I mention are all "poor people" hobbies that I and lots of my friends indulged in back in our <$40k/year days. Also, take a quick glance upwards and notice that it's $400 for VS.NET + Everything Microsoft Makes. So if you would have otherwise spend $189 to have Office bundled in with your computer, you can think of the IDE costing ~$200. Or four video games (as in, one per year). If programming is something you value doing, that's not a lot. Poor or otherwise.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  > Why is your heart breaking? I used the free MSVC2003 compiler during high school, when $600 was half a year's worth of pocket money, and when mingw didn't even link a basic UNICODE program properly. I eventually saved up enough money to buy the "full" MSVC2003 Standard for ~€130, what later became Express. I never made a single penny off it. I bet many people who got into programming through hobby gamedev lived a similar life. After making the switch to OS X during university, I often used the (now free) MSVC Express for playing around with Open Source on Windows. Or to compile a copy of my game for Windows friends. Tiny stuff that's not worth three-digit sums. If I can't toy around and be happy on Windows, then I'll forever stay in Apple wonderland. Both scenarios will be too expensive to imagine now. If anything, people will use mingw instead. And that's what breaks my heart - I really wish people could use the awesome MSVC2011 compiler instead, with all the new C++ features we have been looking forward to for years. MSVC2010 is still good enough, but for how long?
  - gurkendoktor 14y ago
    Seems mingw's C++11 support is getting there too - though I couldn't find a definitive list. That solves some of my heartache at least.
hkarthik 14y ago
>> I don't think any professional will care about this. In fact, it's probably good news for them (us). Any barrier to entry means slightly less competition. I think it's unfortunate that the professionals would see this as a good thing. New developers to the MS Stack can bring a fresh perspective with newer, more unique approaches to solving problems. That leads to a healthier ecosystem.
dthunt 14y ago
I don't actually care that much about compilers - as others have mentioned, there are several options out there. I also am not particularly concerned about updated C++ feature support - the reality is that there are still a ton of really terrible windows developers out there who aren't familiar with the windows application model, security models, best practices, and have no idea how servicing works. When people start complaining about not having functors, or some other language feature, I tend to get a little irritated, because this is not the big problem with software development on Windows. If someone doesn't want to use VS2008 Express, I will note that there is always WDK, which last I checked shipped with cl.exe, and will almost certainly continue to do so.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  As I said, I don't think existing professionals will care about this. But people are not born as professionals. Many end up that way because they entered an ecosystem for fun. The functor playground I grew up on has a "suits only" sign now.

jasonkester 14y ago

Why is your heart breaking? The new version still supports c++, right? Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean you can't pay a little money for things. I have lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than computer programming. One surfboard costs more than you'll pay for a full VS.NET license. Over the 4 years this next version will keep you going, I'll go through thousands of dollars worth of rock shoes. A gamer will go through thousands of dollars worth of games. A mountain biker will replace his $1500 bike in that timeframe, and a snowboarder will rack up thousands of dollars in lift tickets and baggy trousers. All these things have in common that: A. They're enjoyable, and: B. They cost money. Programming computers is no different. If you want to do it, and there's a good new tool out that costs money, why would you not buy it?

chc 14y ago
They would probably be willing to pay a little money. $600 is not a little money for normal people. Pointing out that it's not a lot of money for rich people seems a little beside the point. I don't think anybody's all that worried about the wealthy.
- jasonkester 14y ago
  I never said anything about rich/poor people. In fact, the hobbies I mention are all "poor people" hobbies that I and lots of my friends indulged in back in our <$40k/year days. Also, take a quick glance upwards and notice that it's $400 for VS.NET + Everything Microsoft Makes. So if you would have otherwise spend $189 to have Office bundled in with your computer, you can think of the IDE costing ~$200. Or four video games (as in, one per year). If programming is something you value doing, that's not a lot. Poor or otherwise.
gurkendoktor 14y ago
> Why is your heart breaking? I used the free MSVC2003 compiler during high school, when $600 was half a year's worth of pocket money, and when mingw didn't even link a basic UNICODE program properly. I eventually saved up enough money to buy the "full" MSVC2003 Standard for ~€130, what later became Express. I never made a single penny off it. I bet many people who got into programming through hobby gamedev lived a similar life. After making the switch to OS X during university, I often used the (now free) MSVC Express for playing around with Open Source on Windows. Or to compile a copy of my game for Windows friends. Tiny stuff that's not worth three-digit sums. If I can't toy around and be happy on Windows, then I'll forever stay in Apple wonderland. Both scenarios will be too expensive to imagine now. If anything, people will use mingw instead. And that's what breaks my heart - I really wish people could use the awesome MSVC2011 compiler instead, with all the new C++ features we have been looking forward to for years. MSVC2010 is still good enough, but for how long?
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  Seems mingw's C++11 support is getting there too - though I couldn't find a definitive list. That solves some of my heartache at least.

hkarthik 14y ago

>> I don't think any professional will care about this. In fact, it's probably good news for them (us). Any barrier to entry means slightly less competition. I think it's unfortunate that the professionals would see this as a good thing. New developers to the MS Stack can bring a fresh perspective with newer, more unique approaches to solving problems. That leads to a healthier ecosystem.

dthunt 14y ago

I don't actually care that much about compilers - as others have mentioned, there are several options out there. I also am not particularly concerned about updated C++ feature support - the reality is that there are still a ton of really terrible windows developers out there who aren't familiar with the windows application model, security models, best practices, and have no idea how servicing works. When people start complaining about not having functors, or some other language feature, I tend to get a little irritated, because this is not the big problem with software development on Windows. If someone doesn't want to use VS2008 Express, I will note that there is always WDK, which last I checked shipped with cl.exe, and will almost certainly continue to do so.

gurkendoktor 14y ago
As I said, I don't think existing professionals will care about this. But people are not born as professionals. Many end up that way because they entered an ecosystem for fun. The functor playground I grew up on has a "suits only" sign now.