6 ms·

I thought California required job listings to provide pay ranges. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220SB1162 https:/

I thought California required job listings to provide pay ranges. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220SB1162 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... >3) An employer with 15 or more employees shall include the pay scale for a position in any job posting. >5) An employer with 15 or more employees that engages a third party to announce, post, publish, or otherwise make known a job posting shall provide the pay scale to the third party. The third party shall include the pay scale in the job posting. Edit: wow, so many California/New York City/Washington/Colorado job listings that are omitting the legally required pay ranges Edit 2: Also see #29 and #34 below: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/california_equal_pay_act.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/california_equal_pay_act.htm

dang 3y ago
These comments are getting repetitive and Who Is Hiring threads are not the place to ligitate this (let alone have off-topic tangents like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40228529 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40228529) We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40224322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40224322.
heyoni 3y ago
Nice callout. Love that these posts have comments enabled. I hope that never changes.
- dang 3y ago
  Comments are enabled so people can ask relevant questions and occasionally exchange information, but unfortunately there's also a strong tendency to go off topic.
sashank_1509 3y ago
what’s the point, most companies just give a broad range like 200k-600k which makes the whole exercise pointless.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  The bottom of the range, and the movement of the bottom of the range, provides necessary information to shed light on the movement of supply and demand.
  - sashank_1509 3y ago
    You’re far better off just using levels.fyi which is pretty accurate for big companies like Apple. According to levels ICT4 varies from 260k to 440k which I’m willing to bet is a narrower band than anything Apple will provide.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Information from the business itself is more reliable than information from a third party website. It is also more useful to the business’s existing employees. Also, the third party website can use the information from official job listings to provide the most accurate and sourced data.
      - sashank_1509 3y ago
        If levels.fyi used info from job listings, it would end up completely useless like the pay ranges companies post. The whole reason it works, is because it does not use “official data.”
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        It’s possible to track two different things. Movement of the bottom of the range and movement of the reported prices of cleared transactions. The former information is credible and useful for looking at long term supply and demand trends. The latter information is useful for negotiating individual compensation.
- VirusNewbie 3y ago
  I don't think that's pointless at all, there are plenty of companies that have a high range lower than what I want. At least with a high range I know if I do well enough, I have a shot at getting something around there.
jriggs 3y ago
wdym? i doubt this qualifies as a job posting
- pavlov 3y ago
  What’s missing that would qualify this as a job posting? It has a detailed description of the position they’re hiring for, and an apple.com email address. Sure seems like it’s a California company posting about a job opening.
  - silenced_trope 3y ago
    I get what you're saying, but this is an HN thread. I see people from companies I use to work at post in these threads sometimes. It's less a formal post and more like "Hey I'm on a team hiring, here's what the job entails, email me (or recruiter) if interested!" Yes it might technically amount to a job posting, but being pedantic and making this forum a hellish place probably isn't a good idea :)
    - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
      This is not an informal discussion though. This is a monthly thread, posted by one of the administrators of the site, with the express purpose of matching job seekers with job providers. The top level post includes everything a normal job posting does, and is phrased in the style of a job posting. It would be hard to argue in a court of law that it is not, unless the OP doesn't have permission from Apple to advertise a job opening.
      - orochimaaru 3y ago
        They will probably send you a link to formally apply on the Apple site once you send the email. I’m guessing that site will have the comp range. Not a lawyer, but I’m guessing the comp range inclusion needs to be advertised before you formally apply for the position. I doubt the email here is that.
oDot 3y ago
[flagged]
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > Can we not deal with those issues ourselves No, an individual labor seller would never be able to gather the information necessary since they experience so few transactions. How can one expect markets to work without price transparency? Labor buyers have access to far more price data than labor sellers, which tells them which way supply and demand is moving, giving labor buyers an upper hand. If you want labor to be allocated most efficiently, then labor sellers also have to have access to labor price data.
  - oDot 3y ago
    Not having access to something does not grant you rights to it. You probably know a lot of things I don't, and some things that I can never know. That does not allow me to compel you to tell them to me. Yes, even if I really want to make some impossible to define metric, like efficiency, look better.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      > Not having access to something does not grant you rights to it. The California law I referenced grants me rights to the pay range information. > You probably know a lot of things I don't, and some things that I can never know. That does not allow me to compel you to tell them to me. Which is why people in society get together and implement rules to make the game work better for everyone. For example, real estate prices information is public data in almost all US jurisdictions.
      - oDot 3y ago
        If it's good for everyone there's no need to use the force of law. Stop using force to make people do things you deem right out of thin air

dang 3y ago

These comments are getting repetitive and Who Is Hiring threads are not the place to ligitate this (let alone have off-topic tangents like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40228529 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40228529) We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40224322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40224322.

heyoni 3y ago

Nice callout. Love that these posts have comments enabled. I hope that never changes.

dang 3y ago
Comments are enabled so people can ask relevant questions and occasionally exchange information, but unfortunately there's also a strong tendency to go off topic.

sashank_1509 3y ago

what’s the point, most companies just give a broad range like 200k-600k which makes the whole exercise pointless.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
The bottom of the range, and the movement of the bottom of the range, provides necessary information to shed light on the movement of supply and demand.
- sashank_1509 3y ago
  You’re far better off just using levels.fyi which is pretty accurate for big companies like Apple. According to levels ICT4 varies from 260k to 440k which I’m willing to bet is a narrower band than anything Apple will provide.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Information from the business itself is more reliable than information from a third party website. It is also more useful to the business’s existing employees. Also, the third party website can use the information from official job listings to provide the most accurate and sourced data.
    - sashank_1509 3y ago
      If levels.fyi used info from job listings, it would end up completely useless like the pay ranges companies post. The whole reason it works, is because it does not use “official data.”
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        It’s possible to track two different things. Movement of the bottom of the range and movement of the reported prices of cleared transactions. The former information is credible and useful for looking at long term supply and demand trends. The latter information is useful for negotiating individual compensation.
VirusNewbie 3y ago
I don't think that's pointless at all, there are plenty of companies that have a high range lower than what I want. At least with a high range I know if I do well enough, I have a shot at getting something around there.

jriggs 3y ago

wdym? i doubt this qualifies as a job posting

pavlov 3y ago
What’s missing that would qualify this as a job posting? It has a detailed description of the position they’re hiring for, and an apple.com email address. Sure seems like it’s a California company posting about a job opening.
- silenced_trope 3y ago
  I get what you're saying, but this is an HN thread. I see people from companies I use to work at post in these threads sometimes. It's less a formal post and more like "Hey I'm on a team hiring, here's what the job entails, email me (or recruiter) if interested!" Yes it might technically amount to a job posting, but being pedantic and making this forum a hellish place probably isn't a good idea :)
  - dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
    This is not an informal discussion though. This is a monthly thread, posted by one of the administrators of the site, with the express purpose of matching job seekers with job providers. The top level post includes everything a normal job posting does, and is phrased in the style of a job posting. It would be hard to argue in a court of law that it is not, unless the OP doesn't have permission from Apple to advertise a job opening.
    - orochimaaru 3y ago
      They will probably send you a link to formally apply on the Apple site once you send the email. I’m guessing that site will have the comp range. Not a lawyer, but I’m guessing the comp range inclusion needs to be advertised before you formally apply for the position. I doubt the email here is that.

oDot 3y ago

[flagged]

lotsofpulp 3y ago
> Can we not deal with those issues ourselves No, an individual labor seller would never be able to gather the information necessary since they experience so few transactions. How can one expect markets to work without price transparency? Labor buyers have access to far more price data than labor sellers, which tells them which way supply and demand is moving, giving labor buyers an upper hand. If you want labor to be allocated most efficiently, then labor sellers also have to have access to labor price data.
- oDot 3y ago
  Not having access to something does not grant you rights to it. You probably know a lot of things I don't, and some things that I can never know. That does not allow me to compel you to tell them to me. Yes, even if I really want to make some impossible to define metric, like efficiency, look better.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > Not having access to something does not grant you rights to it. The California law I referenced grants me rights to the pay range information. > You probably know a lot of things I don't, and some things that I can never know. That does not allow me to compel you to tell them to me. Which is why people in society get together and implement rules to make the game work better for everyone. For example, real estate prices information is public data in almost all US jurisdictions.
    - oDot 3y ago
      If it's good for everyone there's no need to use the force of law. Stop using force to make people do things you deem right out of thin air