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> The letter comes in response to an inquiry by Sen. Wyden’s office, which asked the association representing automakers how their members respond to law enforc

> The letter comes in response to an inquiry by Sen. Wyden’s office, which asked the association representing automakers how their members respond to law enforcement requests for location information collected from internet-connected cars and trucks. He found that only five — GM, Ford, Honda, Stellantis and Tesla — require a warrant to provide location data to law-enforcement. And only Tesla notifies auto owners about government demands. So, if the truth is being told, then some car manufacturers are breaking promises. Vote your car purchases accordingly?

caturopath 3y ago
Sort of interesting that it's the 4 big American carmakers plus Honda.
- user_7832 3y ago
  Unfortunately Honda's been responsible for some questionable actions (along with other cos) in the US in the past (I think it was an anti-repair bill/lobby involving Louis Rossmann). However, apparently Honda US operates semi-independently vs Honda Japan/Global. (Highlighting this because I'm a huge Honda fan and didn't know of the US/Global separation till I read up. Please correct me if I said something inaccurate, I'm going off memory here.)
- Svip 3y ago
  I'm not sure I would describe Stellantis as a US carmaker. The majority of its marques are European, and it's headquartered in the Netherlands.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    I wonder what the breakdown of Stellantis employees’ location is. They make most of their money in North America. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1297320/net-revenue-stellantis-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1297320/net-revenue-stel... Assuming Dodge Ram pickup trucks and Jeep SUVs are the highest profit margin product they sell, the US might be its most lucrative market.
- croes 3y ago
  >Volvo, which is owned by Geely, a Chinese company, did not respond to the request. Volvo didn't share data too.
  - reaperducer 3y ago
    Volvo, which is owned by Geely 6.8% counts as "owned" now. Good to know. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo
    - ale42 3y ago
      Not the right company, you're looking at the holding. Volvo Cars is 78.7% Geely... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Cars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Cars
    - antonkochubey 3y ago
      Geely owns 78.7% of Volvo Cars. Their ownership of semi truck / marine engine / ... divisions is irrelevant.
czbond 3y ago
I drive a Jeep. Jeep owners tend to skew libertarian & DIY. Owners have found you can bypass or cut power to the modules via fuse pulls. I bet you can do this on other makes. If anybody cares, I can post more. I have not done this myself.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  > If anybody cares, I can post more Please do. Information circulated that attempting to disable modules (e.g. the e-call) resulted in the vehicle returning a "cannot start" or "degraded mode", "core component missing" (or similar).
  - czbond 3y ago
    Jeep Wranglers & Gladiators are very similar. This thread has links from how to opt out, where Stellantis is selling data, to potential module pulls, and possibly faraday cloth attempts, attaching resistive dummy loads for antennas, pulling 4g modem. [it's a smorgasboard... you're going to have to parse it to find what may interest you] https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/how-to-opt-out-of-jeep-data-harvesting-and-sharing.80411/ https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/how-to-opt-...
- hunter2_ 3y ago
  And then there's VW who decided that the Bluetooth microphone should be on the same fuse/module as the CAR-NET modem, so it's hours of work if you want to be precise about what you disable.
- hentrep 3y ago
  I’d love to read more - can you share a link?
  - czbond 3y ago
    This is a dual post from another comment in the same thread: Jeep Wranglers & Gladiators are very similar. This thread has links from how to opt out, where Stellantis is selling data, to potential module pulls, and possibly faraday cloth attempts, attaching resistive dummy loads for antennas, pulling 4g modem. [it's a smorgasboard... you're going to have to parse it to find what may interest you] https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/how-to-opt-out-of-jeep-data-harvesting-and-sharing.80411/ https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/how-to-opt-...
mdp2021 3y ago
> Vote your car purchases accordingly? And wait for the next internal administration to change policy. The issue is with the car being connected!
- Justsignedup 3y ago
  The issue is there are zero laws controling data collection. Online or from cars. And no ability to opt out. No practical ability at least.
  - mdp2021 3y ago
    You do not connect critical components. What about "connected pacemakers" and h- - well, us?! Security design imposes reduction of all potential sources of failure to the essential required for function...
- bell-cot 3y ago
  True. But if: #1 - You need a new car and #2 - All your new car options are connected then #3 - See #1 Or, maybe those cheap new Chinese EV's I've been hearing about will not be connected, nor connectable, "because cost-cutting". That trick might also save the Chinese manufacturers a load of legal headaches and issues.
  - J_Shelby_J 3y ago
    #3 - Move somewhere you don't need a car. lol jk, Vancouver is too expensive, and there is no where else in NA where car ownership is optional for parents.
  - highcountess 3y ago
    That has also crossed my mind in the past. The Chinese government being the source of conserving privacy from an acceleratingly authoritarian, western world dominating centralized government is rather ironic. I could see it happen just for the Chinese to enter the U.S. market. It would also at the same time cause massive rifts in the west’s self-image of openness, equality, non-discrimination, anti-racism, etc (just like the TikTok ban is exposing) and the public will become painfully aware of the false and fake nature of our governments, if they block cars/Chinese companies without a legitimate justification. If I were the Chinese I would do just that, not only offer cars that are not connected other than if one wants to connect their phone, but even make it a major issue and part of their identify and advertisement campaigns.
nimbius 3y ago
speaking as a diesel auto mechanic, these systems exist in the big 4 truck makers as well. The premise for them is useless. no one uses the SoS button, you have towing and repair service you pay for through your company or as part of your owner/operator insurance (probably similar for regular cars too.) everyone hits this button by mistake though, because its next to your sunglass holder and other buttons you actually use. ive pulled dozens of these things out for customers. For people looking to gut the spyware from their car, The "phone box" as professional drivers call it is separate from the rest of the vehicle and often located in or near the glovebox. it typically contains a riser board you can remove to disable the cellular communications for the vehicle. barring this, it has a SIM card you can physically remove as well. note that removing either will trigger a dashboard light. you can ignore it so long as you get regular maintenance, or occasionally pop the board back in to verify youre not throwing other codes for the engine/etc... edit: customer support scumbags for truck companies will often warn you this will "disable" your hands-free calling. it absolutely does not, as handsfree is a feature of the info-tainment and NOT the modem.
- blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
  The fact that this triggers a light is infuriating. I assume disabling this also voids warranties?
  - vegetablepotpie 3y ago
    The Magnuson Moss warranty act says that manufacturers have to prove that something you did damaged the vehicle to deny a warranty claim. A manufacturer merely observing that you modified the vehicle does not mean that the warranty was voided. Of course the manufacturer will claim this every time, even if it’s not consistent with the law.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - ultrarunner 3y ago
    In emissions control areas it possibly prevents the vehicle registration from being updated, depending on the light, the policy, and the interpretation by the guy working the booth that day
blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
This means Toyota / Lexus, Subaru, Mazda, Volkswagen / Audi, Porsche, Volvo, and numerous other brands just blindly comply? Ugh
- mdp2021 3y ago
  According to the Mozilla report on privacy in cars, Spet. 2023, in some countries several automakers do not even need a formal request - informal contact is sufficient, they say. Legal procedure is cultural and local. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-... > Hyundai’s privacy policy says, for example, that they can share data with law enforcement and governments based on “formal or informal” requests. Kia’s policy says they may share data in many scenarios “if, in our good faith opinion, such is required or permitted by law”
- croes 3y ago
  Volkswagen and Mercedes have a history of helping authoritarian regimes, like Brazil and Argentina.
  - lkramer 3y ago
    And Nazi Germany :D

caturopath 3y ago

Sort of interesting that it's the 4 big American carmakers plus Honda.

user_7832 3y ago
Unfortunately Honda's been responsible for some questionable actions (along with other cos) in the US in the past (I think it was an anti-repair bill/lobby involving Louis Rossmann). However, apparently Honda US operates semi-independently vs Honda Japan/Global. (Highlighting this because I'm a huge Honda fan and didn't know of the US/Global separation till I read up. Please correct me if I said something inaccurate, I'm going off memory here.)
Svip 3y ago
I'm not sure I would describe Stellantis as a US carmaker. The majority of its marques are European, and it's headquartered in the Netherlands.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  I wonder what the breakdown of Stellantis employees’ location is. They make most of their money in North America. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1297320/net-revenue-stellantis-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1297320/net-revenue-stel... Assuming Dodge Ram pickup trucks and Jeep SUVs are the highest profit margin product they sell, the US might be its most lucrative market.
croes 3y ago
>Volvo, which is owned by Geely, a Chinese company, did not respond to the request. Volvo didn't share data too.
- reaperducer 3y ago
  Volvo, which is owned by Geely 6.8% counts as "owned" now. Good to know. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo
  - ale42 3y ago
    Not the right company, you're looking at the holding. Volvo Cars is 78.7% Geely... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Cars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Cars
  - antonkochubey 3y ago
    Geely owns 78.7% of Volvo Cars. Their ownership of semi truck / marine engine / ... divisions is irrelevant.

czbond 3y ago

I drive a Jeep. Jeep owners tend to skew libertarian & DIY. Owners have found you can bypass or cut power to the modules via fuse pulls. I bet you can do this on other makes. If anybody cares, I can post more. I have not done this myself.

mdp2021 3y ago
> If anybody cares, I can post more Please do. Information circulated that attempting to disable modules (e.g. the e-call) resulted in the vehicle returning a "cannot start" or "degraded mode", "core component missing" (or similar).
- czbond 3y ago
  Jeep Wranglers & Gladiators are very similar. This thread has links from how to opt out, where Stellantis is selling data, to potential module pulls, and possibly faraday cloth attempts, attaching resistive dummy loads for antennas, pulling 4g modem. [it's a smorgasboard... you're going to have to parse it to find what may interest you] https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/how-to-opt-out-of-jeep-data-harvesting-and-sharing.80411/ https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/how-to-opt-...
hunter2_ 3y ago
And then there's VW who decided that the Bluetooth microphone should be on the same fuse/module as the CAR-NET modem, so it's hours of work if you want to be precise about what you disable.
hentrep 3y ago
I’d love to read more - can you share a link?
- czbond 3y ago
  This is a dual post from another comment in the same thread: Jeep Wranglers & Gladiators are very similar. This thread has links from how to opt out, where Stellantis is selling data, to potential module pulls, and possibly faraday cloth attempts, attaching resistive dummy loads for antennas, pulling 4g modem. [it's a smorgasboard... you're going to have to parse it to find what may interest you] https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/how-to-opt-out-of-jeep-data-harvesting-and-sharing.80411/ https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/how-to-opt-...

mdp2021 3y ago

> Vote your car purchases accordingly? And wait for the next internal administration to change policy. The issue is with the car being connected!

Justsignedup 3y ago
The issue is there are zero laws controling data collection. Online or from cars. And no ability to opt out. No practical ability at least.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  You do not connect critical components. What about "connected pacemakers" and h- - well, us?! Security design imposes reduction of all potential sources of failure to the essential required for function...
bell-cot 3y ago
True. But if: #1 - You need a new car and #2 - All your new car options are connected then #3 - See #1 Or, maybe those cheap new Chinese EV's I've been hearing about will not be connected, nor connectable, "because cost-cutting". That trick might also save the Chinese manufacturers a load of legal headaches and issues.
- J_Shelby_J 3y ago
  #3 - Move somewhere you don't need a car. lol jk, Vancouver is too expensive, and there is no where else in NA where car ownership is optional for parents.
- highcountess 3y ago
  That has also crossed my mind in the past. The Chinese government being the source of conserving privacy from an acceleratingly authoritarian, western world dominating centralized government is rather ironic. I could see it happen just for the Chinese to enter the U.S. market. It would also at the same time cause massive rifts in the west’s self-image of openness, equality, non-discrimination, anti-racism, etc (just like the TikTok ban is exposing) and the public will become painfully aware of the false and fake nature of our governments, if they block cars/Chinese companies without a legitimate justification. If I were the Chinese I would do just that, not only offer cars that are not connected other than if one wants to connect their phone, but even make it a major issue and part of their identify and advertisement campaigns.

nimbius 3y ago

speaking as a diesel auto mechanic, these systems exist in the big 4 truck makers as well. The premise for them is useless. no one uses the SoS button, you have towing and repair service you pay for through your company or as part of your owner/operator insurance (probably similar for regular cars too.) everyone hits this button by mistake though, because its next to your sunglass holder and other buttons you actually use. ive pulled dozens of these things out for customers. For people looking to gut the spyware from their car, The "phone box" as professional drivers call it is separate from the rest of the vehicle and often located in or near the glovebox. it typically contains a riser board you can remove to disable the cellular communications for the vehicle. barring this, it has a SIM card you can physically remove as well. note that removing either will trigger a dashboard light. you can ignore it so long as you get regular maintenance, or occasionally pop the board back in to verify youre not throwing other codes for the engine/etc... edit: customer support scumbags for truck companies will often warn you this will "disable" your hands-free calling. it absolutely does not, as handsfree is a feature of the info-tainment and NOT the modem.

blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
The fact that this triggers a light is infuriating. I assume disabling this also voids warranties?
- vegetablepotpie 3y ago
  The Magnuson Moss warranty act says that manufacturers have to prove that something you did damaged the vehicle to deny a warranty claim. A manufacturer merely observing that you modified the vehicle does not mean that the warranty was voided. Of course the manufacturer will claim this every time, even if it’s not consistent with the law.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- ultrarunner 3y ago
  In emissions control areas it possibly prevents the vehicle registration from being updated, depending on the light, the policy, and the interpretation by the guy working the booth that day

blackeyeblitzar 3y ago

This means Toyota / Lexus, Subaru, Mazda, Volkswagen / Audi, Porsche, Volvo, and numerous other brands just blindly comply? Ugh

mdp2021 3y ago
According to the Mozilla report on privacy in cars, Spet. 2023, in some countries several automakers do not even need a formal request - informal contact is sufficient, they say. Legal procedure is cultural and local. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-... > Hyundai’s privacy policy says, for example, that they can share data with law enforcement and governments based on “formal or informal” requests. Kia’s policy says they may share data in many scenarios “if, in our good faith opinion, such is required or permitted by law”
croes 3y ago
Volkswagen and Mercedes have a history of helping authoritarian regimes, like Brazil and Argentina.
- lkramer 3y ago
  And Nazi Germany :D