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Car manufacturers break promise about sharing location data with police
- RobotToaster 2y agoAn unwritten contract is worth as much as the paper it's written on.
- AlexandrB 2y agoA written privacy policy is worth up to 0.001% of revenue in fines.
- langsoul-com 2y agoAfter 10 years in the court system
- LinuxBender 2y agoAnd after the executives have cashed out their stock and walk away with massive bonuses entirely unaffected.
- underlipton 2y agoThose fraud/embezzlement executions aren't looking so bad now, huh? (This warrant-less data sharing increases contact with the police, which increases the chances of a fatal encounter, and the incidence of them overall. So, if it's life-and-death on one end...)
- s_dev 2y agoNot in Irish law anyway -- a verbal contract can absolutely hold up in court. Anything including a recording or witness can corroborate this -- not a jot of ink or paper required for enforcement. Still a good idea as writing is just simply a useful flexible and convenient storage mechanism but there are a lot of nuances beyond your 'if it's not written down it doesn't count' sentiment.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bell-cot 2y ago> The letter comes in response to an inquiry by Sen. Wyden’s office, which asked the association representing automakers how their members respond to law enforcement requests for location information collected from internet-connected cars and trucks. He found that only five — GM, Ford, Honda, Stellantis and Tesla — require a warrant to provide location data to law-enforcement. And only Tesla notifies auto owners about government demands. So, if the truth is being told, then some car manufacturers are breaking promises. Vote your car purchases accordingly?
- caturopath 2y agoSort of interesting that it's the 4 big American carmakers plus Honda.
- user_7832 2y agoUnfortunately Honda's been responsible for some questionable actions (along with other cos) in the US in the past (I think it was an anti-repair bill/lobby involving Louis Rossmann). However, apparently Honda US operates semi-independently vs Honda Japan/Global. (Highlighting this because I'm a huge Honda fan and didn't know of the US/Global separation till I read up. Please correct me if I said something inaccurate, I'm going off memory here.)
- Svip 2y agoI'm not sure I would describe Stellantis as a US carmaker. The majority of its marques are European, and it's headquartered in the Netherlands.
- lotsofpulp 2y agoI wonder what the breakdown of Stellantis employees’ location is. They make most of their money in North America. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1297320/net-revenue-stellantis-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1297320/net-revenue-stel... Assuming Dodge Ram pickup trucks and Jeep SUVs are the highest profit margin product they sell, the US might be its most lucrative market.
- delichon 2y agoThis kind of abuse will keep me driving and buying used cars far longer than I would otherwise. That means I'll be driving more with lower emission and safety standards. For me that's an ugly but good trade to evade making big brother my copilot. I don't know if there are enough like minded drivers to make this a large effect.
- mdp2021 2y ago> I don't know if there are enough like minded drivers to make this a large effect The disaster is that there has been a large enough component of buyers that did not care about the issue, and that had no idea of the possibility of the issue. It created this perverse market together with many others.
- barbariangrunge 2y agoIt’s not that people don’t care, it’s that they’re helpless
- olyjohn 2y agoNo, they also don't care. Talk to most people. They literally don't care and will say things like "Well let them have the data, what will they do with it?" Especially when you save a few bucks with something like a "loyalty card."
- czbond 2y agoSee my post in this thread - but research if your desired car can have these modules bypassed with a fuse pull, or wire cut.
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoIf one were conspiracy-minded, "Cash for Clunkers" looks a lot more ominous in retrospect...
- vannucci 2y agoI've been doing the same, my next car and hopefully my last will be an old Grand Marquis. I can fix it myself, no tracking, and just goes forever.
- sesuximo 2y agoIdk if this is worth the trouble. Isn’t a judge just going to stamp these requests anyway? Like sure maybe it’s better if they do but probably won’t be groundbreaking
- Nasrudith 2y agoForcing them to leave a paper trail is a vital step to preventing abuse. Otherwise what is to stop them from just stalking their ex or their crush?
- knicholes 2y agoThe law.
- giraffe_lady 2y agoDo you know any cops they don't give a shit about the law.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoI do and yes they do give a shit. I'd argue they give more of a shit than most people- they have to.
- giraffe_lady 2y agoYeah because of the famously extreme consequences if they act outside of it? They don't give a shit lol. They will talk up "the rule of law" but all they mean by this is order. They can arrest who they want for whatever and the courts have to sort it out. Outside of work they know they can get away with anything up to murder. In fact on this specific subject while we're on it, having volunteered extensively with domestic violent victims it is unreal how many of them are the spouses or girlfriends of police. Cops using surveillance systems to stalk women is routine.
- 2y ago
- mdp2021 2y ago> will require a warrant for more than seven days of location data The first matter is: what entitles automakers to keep any location data.
- shadowgovt 2y agoBeing able to locate one's own vehicle is a common feature among modern cellphone equipped cars.
- mdp2021 2y ago> [location in case of theft] Well it has some definite drawbacks, does it not. Would it not be better to have custom positioning systems, with data stored in secure repositories?
- shadowgovt 2y agoAs far as the law is concerned, GM's data center is a secure repository as long as they're following existing PII protection requirements. ... And it's not just theft, it's also "wow this parking lot is huge..."
- mdp2021 2y ago> As far as the law is concerned, GM's data center is a secure repository Well, of course: I meant "a secure repository /for the user/" :) I.e.: you could trust the law (as well done and respected), or you could stay on the safe side. Taking a look around, I'd take the safer side. > "wow this parking lot is huge..." Like opening a trunk through feed waggling or radio control of windows for those who are prone to leaving open sunroofs during storms - at the cost of adding complexities and possibly exposure to faults and malice... The first violently blinking one being "no need to press a button to open the car anymore, proximity suffices". Everyone makes their own decisions on tradeoffs: the option - which they may like, which may leave them indifferent, which they may not want at all - should not be shoved in the throat of the users.
- 2y ago
- 1-6 2y agoI think there’s a fine line between protection of the public against tyrannies and protection of the public against themselves. People like to play ‘what-if’s’ but it’s not useful when people are immediately dying around us at this very hour. It serves no one if criminals are protected under laws that are designed to protect the innocent.
- Nasrudith 2y agoYou clearly don't understand the first thing about the legal system then, innocent until proven guilty is kind of a vital tenant of it. The protection of innocents applies to all.
- shadowgovt 2y ago"Why can the government force me to display a license plate on my car? I'm an innocent citizen; they have no right to force me to bear a code like I'm a criminal." The privilege of operating on public roadways imposes some obligations on vehicle operators. What those obligations should be is a pros-cons trade-off that has little to do with the criminal-guilt threshold. If the tech is cheap enough, there are a lot of hypothetical upsides to constantly tracking every multi-ton machine on the road. Observe, for comparison, the FAA requirements for flight plans and running a broadcasting transponder to safely operate an airplane.
- mysteria 2y ago> If the tech is cheap enough, there are a lot of hypothetical upsides to constantly tracking every multi-ton machine on the road. Observe, for comparison, the FAA requirements for flight plans and running a broadcasting transponder to safely operate an airplane. If the tech is cheap enough, you could argue that there are hypothetical upsides to having a tracker implanted inside every citizen as well. After all those citizens are capable of illegal behavior and must be monitored.
- shadowgovt 2y ago
- 15155 2y agoWe're everything a world where cars won't run without phoning home first.
- shadowgovt 2y agoProbably. There's plenty of incentives to add the feature, and precedent for requiring features of vehicles using public roadways.
- olyjohn 2y agoYou were downvoted, but it's true. The per-mile tax that states have been trying to push for years will make location tracking a requirement to getting registration for your car. This legislation gets pushed to states every year because EVs aren't paying any gas tax, which is what funds road repairs. So the legislators see this as revenue for the state. I'm honestly not sure what has stopped this from happening yet.
- yndoendo 2y agoHyundai, which was not listed, is in the similar category as Volkswagen. "If Law Enforcement requests access to real-time information for a period of more than 48 hours, HMA reserves the right to require that Law Enforcement obtain appropriate legal process (e.g., a subpoena or search warrant) or customer consent within the initial 48-hour period to authorize continued disclosure of real-time information." [0]https://www.hyundaiusa.com/content/dam/hyundai/us/com/pdf/safety/HMA%20Exigent%20Circumstances%20-%20External%20Policy,%20Procedure,%20and%20Fillable%20Form.pdf https://www.hyundaiusa.com/content/dam/hyundai/us/com/pdf/sa...
- deely3 2y agoCynic in me: so, if law enforcement requests list of 47-hours periods its all fine then? And what about not real-time records, all history of driving is available for free then.
- cameldrv 2y agoIt's not that they will require a warrant, just that they "reserve the right" to require it. Your rights as an owner of one of their vehicles are not reserved in any way.
- xyst 2y agoModern car ownership sucks. I’m sticking with my 2016 model year vehicle that has no internet connectivity for as long as possible. The only nice feature it has is a backup camera. Just as third party shops can repair any vehicle and have access to the physical parts. Consumers and repair shops should have access to the firmware that control the features of the car. I should be able to reflash the firmware with a compatible replacement and be good to go.
- AtlasBarfed 2y agoSo when does the blowback start to happen? The integrated car system is just stupid. Your "opt in" to smart systems should all be done through a mobile phone that can be easily upgraded and replaced. At most a car system should just be a dumb interface to a console screen, microphone, speakers, via bluetooth or plugged wire. Also, keyless fobs are terrible, their failure conditions around battery failure and hardware failure are awful, they can't be replaced easily, they are outrageously expensive, and they open up far too many vectors for electronic theft of cars. Every fob I've had has a shelf life of about 5-7 years, while keys will last decades. How is there not a "low tech" option for all the boomers? Kind of like the manual vs automatic transmission option?
- xyst 2y ago“Low tech” option doesn’t sell units, probably.
- WarOnPrivacy 2y agoUnits that don't exist, don't sell. This is true. Advertise a brand of auto that isn't capable of spying or conspiring against you, has a full set of tactile controls, infotainment is special order - and that doesn't blind oncoming drivers. Make the ads a parody of everyone else' driving experience.
- stanski 2y ago2015 with very low mileage here and I'm getting this puppy rust-proofed every year, and staying on top of maintenance items. I have a wandering eye when it comes to cars but I'm sticking with a look but don't touch policy.
- cies 2y agoAm I the only one totally not surprised by this?
- globalnode 2y ago"voluntary code of conduct" -- don't know why people trust these anymore. its in the same league as "police investigating themselves".
- bayouborne 2y agoIs there a list somewhere of what year the tech was implemented, on a model by model basis [a.k.a. snitch-free rides]? Because regardless of what the manufacturers say, it seems like the data's going to inevitably leak out by some means, intentional or otherwise.
- tempodox 2y agoDisappointing, but not surprising. That promise wasn't credible to begin with.
- aftbit 2y agoFWIW I've investigated disabling the connected features on my 2019 Subaru Outback. The relevant module is the DCM, or Data Communication Module. It is physically located behind the infotainment system (what was once called the radio). There is a fuse that you can pull which will disable it (#9 I believe), but it will also disable the front speakers and microphone. This will break in-car navigation and Bluetooth phone calls. Alternatively, if you're willing to disassemble the dash, you can remove the DCM entirely and replace it with a dumb plug that just reconnects the front speakers and mic directly to the infotainment system. One more caveat - some cars are missing a 5V power supply for the microphone, which is otherwise generated by the DCM. The signal exists on the head unit but is missing a pin, probably to save the $0.001 that this pin costs in quantity. You need to either add this pin, acquire that 5V supply from elsewhere, or install a voltage regulator that steps the 12V IGN supply down to power the microphone. It seems that very slightly older Subarus have a problem with the 3G shutdown where the DCM goes into a braindead loop, trying to establish connectivity continuously and draining the battery. As a result, many shops are familiar with the procedure of finding and removing the DCM (to replace it with a newer one or reflash it, not sure which). Perhaps I'll see how much my local independent auto repair place would charge to remove it and replace it with the dummy plug. See this thread for more information: https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/disconnected-cars-non-starlink-lte-options.527915 https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/disconnected-cars-non-...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- blue_green_maps 2y agoVideo showing how to remove the DCM (Data Communication Module) in a 2023 Corolla: https://old.reddit.com/r/COROLLA/comments/12149sd/video_tutorial_showing_how_to_disable_location/ https://old.reddit.com/r/COROLLA/comments/12149sd/video_tuto...
- szundi 2y agoCar manufacturers should remove the feature of location being queried remotely - bam!
- meindnoch 2y agoHow did this happen? Literally noone had seen this coming :(
- ramranch 2y agoWyden once again shows he is the single politician who cares about how technology affects our daily lives.