11 ms·

US opens probe into 130k Ford vehicles over hands-free tech

54 points by ripjaygn 2y ago

bearjaws 2y ago
I'm sure this will get the same amount of discussion as Autopilot...
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  Now's your chance to start it :)
- flerchin 2y ago
  Proportional to market share? Probably will.
- skeeterbug 2y ago
  "...but the system that can kill you is still safer than the average driver!"
  - spywaregorilla 2y ago
    how is that not a compelling argument?
    - cactusplant7374 2y ago
      Dying because software decided to drive through a stop sign is not acceptable to the American driver. It doesn't matter what statistical evidence is presented, it will never be acceptable.
    - Filligree 2y ago
      Nobody believes they're an average driver.
      - frumper 2y ago
        We also probably believe the car next to us is being driven by a below average driver.
flerchin 2y ago
The desire to have a car that drives itself is so high that it overrides folks' self preservation. They'll pay kilodollars for unsafe systems. Regulation is the only solution I can see to prevent buggy beta software unleashing mayhem on the road.
- deadbabe 2y ago
  It’s unfortunate that they are not only putting themselves in danger, but also the lives of people all around them.
  - shadowgovt 2y ago
    But that's every time a human gets behind the wheel also. It comes down to trust: do you trust a machine to get it right every time, or a human to get it right every time? I think people will answer differently based on their differing experiences with machines and people. (... but to my money: when the machine malfunctions, we can crack open its black box, look at its analysis logs, find errors, and update every other clone of the machine to never make that mistake again. Can't do that with humans; for all the lessons we learn about road safety, we are trying inefficiently to imprint them on a new, naive crop of drivers every day).
    - deadbabe 2y ago
      It’s not that simple! Machines distribute accidents without bias. Individuals who are otherwise safe drivers could crash viciously if using self driving modes. Sometimes you can develop intuition for what cars are being driven by bad human drivers and you can avoid them. Machines will appear to be driving just fine until suddenly they’re not, and this can happen very quickly. Also, if you know a car is being driven by a human rather than a machine, you can use your empathy to anticipate what a human driver is going to do in a situation and prepare for that, where as a machine can behave suddenly and unpredictably, increasing your chances of engaging in an accident. Keep these self driving vehicles in their own lanes.
      - 2y ago
monero-xmr 2y ago
It takes thousands of the smartest, highest paid people to make AI work (sort of) most-of-the-time in closed systems like chat interfaces and image generation. There is also no risk to life there. Trying to get this stuff to work on the road is a fool's errand. Just work on warehouses and factory floors. There is at least a business model there and the world is usually climate controlled. What a huge waste of human capital pursuing an impossibility with this self driving car nonsense.
- drcode 2y ago
  https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-desktop.jpg https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/...
- mdgrech23 2y ago
  Huge waste of human capital kind of applies to the auto industry in general. There are so many makes and models and variations all requiring advanced engineering and manufacturing. We could solve a lot of other big problems w/ those engineers.
  - xyst 2y ago
    yea like sane vehicle design; ultra efficient city design and rural access; multimodal transportation design involving walking, biking, rail or other alternative mode of transportation.
  - KRAKRISMOTT 2y ago
    > We could solve a lot of other big problems w/ those engineers. Most hardware folks are underpaid as is outside of aerospace and defence. What you are asking would put them on food stamps. There's a shortage of capital and low interest rates, not hardware talent.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    No, you mean that we could solve a lot of other problems that you care about. At least be honest about it.
giansegato 2y ago
I don't understand the general tenor and sentiment of the comments here. I've taken dozens of self-driving cars rides in SF in the last few months. They were magical, and _they work_. It blows my mind that the general defeatist tone is "it can't be done", while it's literally happening right now. It took a bajillion dollars and decades of work, but we're past the tipping point now. Sure, regulation must happen, it's not like a chat bot where screwing up is worst case scenario being canceled for a week. Lives are on the line. But outright "it's impossible and must be stopped" is literally against progress.
- jajko 2y ago
  World doesn't end at SF borders, nor does it revolve around it. I can come up with tons of corner cases where I simply won't risk life of me and my whole family just because some tech bro said so on the internet. And you know, tons of corner cases that I sometimes experience all over the world sum up into some major percentage. By all means be a betatester, but don't force it down the throats of unsuspecting non-tech users who often trust what manufacturers claim.
  - Ukv 2y ago
    > [...] I simply won't risk life of me and my whole family just because some tech bro said so on the internet. There isn't the option to take no risk - there are over a million deaths a year[0] from regular road traffic crashes. Region-restricted automated taxi services like Waymo are already looking pretty safe compared to human drivers, though there is a lot of selection bias (good conditions, well-mapped US cities, ...). [0]: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/road-traffic-injuries https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/road-traffi...
    - JoeAltmaier 2y ago
      I se 30K on the interweb (US). Where did the million come from?
      - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
whatsakandr 2y ago
There needs to be law or case law so that the manufacturers are proportionally responsible for harm the driver assistance features cause. It's the only way that it'll affect their bottom line enough for them to take safely as seriously as they should.

54 points by ripjaygn 2y ago

bearjaws 2y ago

I'm sure this will get the same amount of discussion as Autopilot...

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
Now's your chance to start it :)
flerchin 2y ago
Proportional to market share? Probably will.
skeeterbug 2y ago
"...but the system that can kill you is still safer than the average driver!"
- spywaregorilla 2y ago
  how is that not a compelling argument?
  - cactusplant7374 2y ago
    Dying because software decided to drive through a stop sign is not acceptable to the American driver. It doesn't matter what statistical evidence is presented, it will never be acceptable.
  - Filligree 2y ago
    Nobody believes they're an average driver.
    - frumper 2y ago
      We also probably believe the car next to us is being driven by a below average driver.

flerchin 2y ago

The desire to have a car that drives itself is so high that it overrides folks' self preservation. They'll pay kilodollars for unsafe systems. Regulation is the only solution I can see to prevent buggy beta software unleashing mayhem on the road.

deadbabe 2y ago
It’s unfortunate that they are not only putting themselves in danger, but also the lives of people all around them.
- shadowgovt 2y ago
  But that's every time a human gets behind the wheel also. It comes down to trust: do you trust a machine to get it right every time, or a human to get it right every time? I think people will answer differently based on their differing experiences with machines and people. (... but to my money: when the machine malfunctions, we can crack open its black box, look at its analysis logs, find errors, and update every other clone of the machine to never make that mistake again. Can't do that with humans; for all the lessons we learn about road safety, we are trying inefficiently to imprint them on a new, naive crop of drivers every day).
  - deadbabe 2y ago
    It’s not that simple! Machines distribute accidents without bias. Individuals who are otherwise safe drivers could crash viciously if using self driving modes. Sometimes you can develop intuition for what cars are being driven by bad human drivers and you can avoid them. Machines will appear to be driving just fine until suddenly they’re not, and this can happen very quickly. Also, if you know a car is being driven by a human rather than a machine, you can use your empathy to anticipate what a human driver is going to do in a situation and prepare for that, where as a machine can behave suddenly and unpredictably, increasing your chances of engaging in an accident. Keep these self driving vehicles in their own lanes.
    - 2y ago

monero-xmr 2y ago

It takes thousands of the smartest, highest paid people to make AI work (sort of) most-of-the-time in closed systems like chat interfaces and image generation. There is also no risk to life there. Trying to get this stuff to work on the road is a fool's errand. Just work on warehouses and factory floors. There is at least a business model there and the world is usually climate controlled. What a huge waste of human capital pursuing an impossibility with this self driving car nonsense.

drcode 2y ago
https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-desktop.jpg https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/...
mdgrech23 2y ago
Huge waste of human capital kind of applies to the auto industry in general. There are so many makes and models and variations all requiring advanced engineering and manufacturing. We could solve a lot of other big problems w/ those engineers.
- xyst 2y ago
  yea like sane vehicle design; ultra efficient city design and rural access; multimodal transportation design involving walking, biking, rail or other alternative mode of transportation.
- KRAKRISMOTT 2y ago
  > We could solve a lot of other big problems w/ those engineers. Most hardware folks are underpaid as is outside of aerospace and defence. What you are asking would put them on food stamps. There's a shortage of capital and low interest rates, not hardware talent.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  No, you mean that we could solve a lot of other problems that you care about. At least be honest about it.

giansegato 2y ago

I don't understand the general tenor and sentiment of the comments here. I've taken dozens of self-driving cars rides in SF in the last few months. They were magical, and _they work_. It blows my mind that the general defeatist tone is "it can't be done", while it's literally happening right now. It took a bajillion dollars and decades of work, but we're past the tipping point now. Sure, regulation must happen, it's not like a chat bot where screwing up is worst case scenario being canceled for a week. Lives are on the line. But outright "it's impossible and must be stopped" is literally against progress.

jajko 2y ago
World doesn't end at SF borders, nor does it revolve around it. I can come up with tons of corner cases where I simply won't risk life of me and my whole family just because some tech bro said so on the internet. And you know, tons of corner cases that I sometimes experience all over the world sum up into some major percentage. By all means be a betatester, but don't force it down the throats of unsuspecting non-tech users who often trust what manufacturers claim.
- Ukv 2y ago
  > [...] I simply won't risk life of me and my whole family just because some tech bro said so on the internet. There isn't the option to take no risk - there are over a million deaths a year[0] from regular road traffic crashes. Region-restricted automated taxi services like Waymo are already looking pretty safe compared to human drivers, though there is a lot of selection bias (good conditions, well-mapped US cities, ...). [0]: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/road-traffic-injuries https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/road-traffi...
  - JoeAltmaier 2y ago
    I se 30K on the interweb (US). Where did the million come from?
    - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

whatsakandr 2y ago

There needs to be law or case law so that the manufacturers are proportionally responsible for harm the driver assistance features cause. It's the only way that it'll affect their bottom line enough for them to take safely as seriously as they should.