4 ms·

Americans Are Open to Cheap Chinese Cars. That's Scary for the Auto Industry

7 points by bilsbie 3y ago

bouncing 3y ago
The new Lincoln Nautilus, for that matter, is made in China.
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  "American" cars and the parts they contain are built all over the world --- just like "foreign" cars. This is a distinction that has lost much it's meaning.
  - bouncing 3y ago
    I would argue that point, at least somewhat. Even among Japanese cars, you can see in reliability reports the difference between cars where the final assembly is in the US or Mexico vs final assembly in Japan. For example the Mazdas truly made in Japan are great, while the ones made in Mexico are, well, good.
    - jqpabc123 3y ago
      A Chevy Silverado is as American as apple pie, right? Or at least, this is how it's marketed. Final assembly of these vehicles is done in Canada, Mexico and the USA. Regardless of the final assembly point, the powertrain (engine and transmission) is likely to have been built at the GM plant in Silao, Mexico. https://www.motorbiscuit.com/1-full-size-american-pickup-truck-is-actually-made-in-mexico/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/1-full-size-american-pickup-tru... Bottom line --- the typical consumer really has no idea what he is getting when he buys "American". The people selling it typically don't really know either but they will gladly tell you whatever they think you want to hear.
      - Kon-Peki 3y ago
        > Bottom line --- the typical consumer really has no idea what he is getting when he buys "American". The people selling it typically don't really know either but they will gladly tell you whatever they think you want to hear. The Monroney Sticker that is on the vehicle lists the following: US/Canadian parts content (by percentage) Other countries that are major sources of parts content (by percentage) Final Assembly Point (City/State/Country) Country of Origin for the engine Country of Origin for the transmission
        jqpabc123 3y ago
        Yes, but what to believe when "American" vehicles actually have *less* "American" content than "foreign" ones? For example, in 2023 Ford averaged 52% "American" content while Honda averaged 67%. Which is more "American" --- a Ford Ranger or a Toyota Tacoma? (Hint: Monroney says it's not the one most people would guess.) https://kogod.american.edu/autoindex/2023 https://kogod.american.edu/autoindex/2023
        Kon-Peki 3y ago
        The only real response is that it's not the Monroney's job to tell you whether a car brand is "American" or "Not American". At this point, just about every auto manufacturer that sells vehicles in the US is a multinational corporation with huge operations in dozens of countries. It's all a branding exercise now. BTW - Honda of America does so much work in Ohio that they could probably completely cut ties with Honda in Japan.
        jqpabc123 3y ago
        It's all a branding exercise now. Thank you for finally agreeing with my original premise.
      - bouncing 3y ago
        Sure. I'm just pointing out that regardless of branding, the quality of the products is (1) not equal, (2) still correlated with where the vehicle is assembled.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    If the main part of the world they're built in is China, for both the US and most foreign cars, then it does have a meaning: some place is doing most of the building, and others produce some minor parts, or just do the final assembly and/or put a sticker on the final product.
    - jqpabc123 3y ago
      As we speak, the Chinese are establishing auto plants in Mexico and Canada. Just like "American" manufacturers who have already done the same. https://mexicobusiness.news/finance/news/soaring-chinese-car-industry-mexico https://mexicobusiness.news/finance/news/soaring-chinese-car... For consumers, the most significant difference between an "American" car built in Mexico and a "Chinese" car built in Mexico may be the price and how much extra they're willing to pay just to hate on China. "American" manufacturers obviously have no problem sourcing parts (and labor) from China. Why should "American" consumers?
      - bouncing 3y ago
        > "American" manufacturers obviously have no problem sourcing parts (and labor) from China. Why should "American" consumers? Because at least presumably, the American companies sourcing parts and labor are overseeing the final product. A lot of products are made in China, sold at Target or Best Buy, and quite good. Whereas if you buy some "random China" toodad off of Alibaba or Wish, who knows what you're getting. To put a finer point on it, would you trust Random Chinese Business to definitely install airbags correctly without Ford or Toyota looking over their shoulder? I doubt you would. It's not a hating on China thing so much as it's an acknowledgement of the fact that domestic Chinese brands generally tend to make absolute garbage.
        jqpabc123 3y ago
        Because at least presumably, the American companies sourcing parts and labor are overseeing the final product. The reason that half the cars now sold in America are "foreign" brands is because American companies proved less than adequate at "overseeing the final product".
jqpabc123 3y ago
A lot of Americans are clueless about how tariffs actually work and "Tariff Man" tries to further confuse the issue every chance he gets. US consumers are the ones who ultimately pay the cost of tariffs.
- coldtea 3y ago
  That's the free market ideology framing (supported by free market economists). Not everybody agrees.
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    Have you ever imported anything? Once you receive the bill from US customs for tariffs due and you are writing the check, it becomes painfully obvious that Americans are footing the bill and it is not just "free market ideology".
082349872349872 3y ago
The auto industry are the razors, what about the blades? Looking at top US exports for 2022, I see: Refined Petroleum ($138B) Crude Petroleum ($118B) Petroleum Gas ($116B) Cars ($57.5B) Integrated Circuits ($49.8B) Some amount of that refined and crude petroleum isn't destined for automotive gas, but I'd be a fair fraction of it is. (couldn't find a by-product breakout on https://www.bea.gov https://www.bea.gov after a bit of digging on so I'm using https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa and relying on lazyweb for double checking)
bell-cot 3y ago
Oh, really? When the median new car price in America is nearly $50K, the median household income (pre-tax) is about $75K, and the costs of housing & medical care are brutally high and still rising...why would umpteen million Americans be prioritizing "cheap" when it comes to cars? Well, at least we have lots of really bright people on HN. So someone here can probably figure it out.

7 points by bilsbie 3y ago

bouncing 3y ago

The new Lincoln Nautilus, for that matter, is made in China.

jqpabc123 3y ago
"American" cars and the parts they contain are built all over the world --- just like "foreign" cars. This is a distinction that has lost much it's meaning.
- bouncing 3y ago
  I would argue that point, at least somewhat. Even among Japanese cars, you can see in reliability reports the difference between cars where the final assembly is in the US or Mexico vs final assembly in Japan. For example the Mazdas truly made in Japan are great, while the ones made in Mexico are, well, good.
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    A Chevy Silverado is as American as apple pie, right? Or at least, this is how it's marketed. Final assembly of these vehicles is done in Canada, Mexico and the USA. Regardless of the final assembly point, the powertrain (engine and transmission) is likely to have been built at the GM plant in Silao, Mexico. https://www.motorbiscuit.com/1-full-size-american-pickup-truck-is-actually-made-in-mexico/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/1-full-size-american-pickup-tru... Bottom line --- the typical consumer really has no idea what he is getting when he buys "American". The people selling it typically don't really know either but they will gladly tell you whatever they think you want to hear.
    - Kon-Peki 3y ago
      > Bottom line --- the typical consumer really has no idea what he is getting when he buys "American". The people selling it typically don't really know either but they will gladly tell you whatever they think you want to hear. The Monroney Sticker that is on the vehicle lists the following: US/Canadian parts content (by percentage) Other countries that are major sources of parts content (by percentage) Final Assembly Point (City/State/Country) Country of Origin for the engine Country of Origin for the transmission
      - jqpabc123 3y ago
        Yes, but what to believe when "American" vehicles actually have *less* "American" content than "foreign" ones? For example, in 2023 Ford averaged 52% "American" content while Honda averaged 67%. Which is more "American" --- a Ford Ranger or a Toyota Tacoma? (Hint: Monroney says it's not the one most people would guess.) https://kogod.american.edu/autoindex/2023 https://kogod.american.edu/autoindex/2023
        Kon-Peki 3y ago
        The only real response is that it's not the Monroney's job to tell you whether a car brand is "American" or "Not American". At this point, just about every auto manufacturer that sells vehicles in the US is a multinational corporation with huge operations in dozens of countries. It's all a branding exercise now. BTW - Honda of America does so much work in Ohio that they could probably completely cut ties with Honda in Japan.
        jqpabc123 3y ago
        It's all a branding exercise now. Thank you for finally agreeing with my original premise.
    - bouncing 3y ago
      Sure. I'm just pointing out that regardless of branding, the quality of the products is (1) not equal, (2) still correlated with where the vehicle is assembled.
- coldtea 3y ago
  If the main part of the world they're built in is China, for both the US and most foreign cars, then it does have a meaning: some place is doing most of the building, and others produce some minor parts, or just do the final assembly and/or put a sticker on the final product.
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    As we speak, the Chinese are establishing auto plants in Mexico and Canada. Just like "American" manufacturers who have already done the same. https://mexicobusiness.news/finance/news/soaring-chinese-car-industry-mexico https://mexicobusiness.news/finance/news/soaring-chinese-car... For consumers, the most significant difference between an "American" car built in Mexico and a "Chinese" car built in Mexico may be the price and how much extra they're willing to pay just to hate on China. "American" manufacturers obviously have no problem sourcing parts (and labor) from China. Why should "American" consumers?
    - bouncing 3y ago
      > "American" manufacturers obviously have no problem sourcing parts (and labor) from China. Why should "American" consumers? Because at least presumably, the American companies sourcing parts and labor are overseeing the final product. A lot of products are made in China, sold at Target or Best Buy, and quite good. Whereas if you buy some "random China" toodad off of Alibaba or Wish, who knows what you're getting. To put a finer point on it, would you trust Random Chinese Business to definitely install airbags correctly without Ford or Toyota looking over their shoulder? I doubt you would. It's not a hating on China thing so much as it's an acknowledgement of the fact that domestic Chinese brands generally tend to make absolute garbage.
      - jqpabc123 3y ago
        Because at least presumably, the American companies sourcing parts and labor are overseeing the final product. The reason that half the cars now sold in America are "foreign" brands is because American companies proved less than adequate at "overseeing the final product".

jqpabc123 3y ago

A lot of Americans are clueless about how tariffs actually work and "Tariff Man" tries to further confuse the issue every chance he gets. US consumers are the ones who ultimately pay the cost of tariffs.

coldtea 3y ago
That's the free market ideology framing (supported by free market economists). Not everybody agrees.
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  Have you ever imported anything? Once you receive the bill from US customs for tariffs due and you are writing the check, it becomes painfully obvious that Americans are footing the bill and it is not just "free market ideology".

082349872349872 3y ago

The auto industry are the razors, what about the blades? Looking at top US exports for 2022, I see: Refined Petroleum ($138B) Crude Petroleum ($118B) Petroleum Gas ($116B) Cars ($57.5B) Integrated Circuits ($49.8B) Some amount of that refined and crude petroleum isn't destined for automotive gas, but I'd be a fair fraction of it is. (couldn't find a by-product breakout on https://www.bea.gov https://www.bea.gov after a bit of digging on so I'm using https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa and relying on lazyweb for double checking)

bell-cot 3y ago

Oh, really? When the median new car price in America is nearly $50K, the median household income (pre-tax) is about $75K, and the costs of housing & medical care are brutally high and still rising...why would umpteen million Americans be prioritizing "cheap" when it comes to cars? Well, at least we have lots of really bright people on HN. So someone here can probably figure it out.