7 ms·

Figma OSS Alternative

294 points by noashavit 2y ago

asicsp 2y ago
Previous discussions: * Penpot 2.0 Released https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39978781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39978781 (131 points | 21 days ago | 27 comments) * Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32851262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32851262 (1145 points | Sept 15, 2022 | 128 comments)
- dudus 2y ago
  On these previous comments it seems like no one bothered to try it. I wonder if we'll get some people with some better feedback this time around because the product does look stunning.
  - LauraMedia 2y ago
    I've been using it for a year for my open source projects before I had a Figma license for contract work. I'd say it's VERY capable, performance can be iffy with enormously big files, but generally on-par with Figma. Their workflow is closer to webdev, so handover to devs is easier, but they lack some of the neat component magic of Figma (last time I've seen they don't have component changes for hover/click states for example). That being said, it's FOSS, anyone can help, they will never have a rugpull like almost getting bought by Adobe.
adpirz 2y ago
One of the things I was gobsmacked by the first time I used Figma years ago was its performance, which has only gotten better with time. From what I understand, they've built some custom stuff for WebGL for their renderer. Here it looks like it's powered by React. I'm curious if anyone's used both and can compare the performance of the two.
- throwaway0665 2y ago
  Figma is the gold standard when it comes to performance and optimization, and is basically a native app that happens to be inside your browser. The co-founder and previous CTO Evan Wallace also created esbuild which powers most of the modern bundling tools. The only other web app I can think of doing the same thing is Google Docs, which uses it's own canvas based renderer with an svg overlay for accessibility. I feel it's telling that Google thought leaning on their own browser (through HTML/CSS) wasn't even good enough for typesetting.
  - purple-leafy 2y ago
    This Evan Wallace fella sounds like an accomplished individual
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Google Docs used to be Writely though; they acquired it. It predates Chrome.
    - nasso_dev 2y ago
      the switch to canvas rendering is recent though https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-Canvas-Based-Rendering-Update.html https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-...
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        Oh! I didn't know that. Fair enough - that does rather make the point.
  - calebj0seph 2y ago
    It's becoming more common. Confluence whiteboards is all WebGL, even the text rendering.
- lopkeny12ko 2y ago
  I've seen people say this a lot, and I have the exact opposite takeaway. Figma is one of the slowest and laggiest applications I've ever used and a shining example to me of why we need to stop building rich software experiences in web browsers. On Linux + Firefox, basic navigation, like panning and zooming around in a file, is painfully laggy. In FigJam, try using the marker to draw any curved line--it updates at like 2 frames per second, which makes it completely unusable for handwriting text or drawing diagrams. Excalidraw, on the other hand, in the same browser, is perfectly lag-free. Every time a designer sends me a Figma I just ask for exported images because using the website is an exercise in frustration. And don't even get me started on the impossible, spaghetti-on-an-infinite-canvas UX requiring endless zooming and dragging...
lukew3 2y ago
I switched to penpot for a little bit after the Adobe acquisition was announced because I figured Figma as we knew it would cease to exist. However, I found that there were little differences between the two that gave it a learning curve and I noticed that I missed little niceities in Figma. I went back to it after a few weeks and after the acquisition was revoked, I feel better about sticking with Figma. I love the company and the story behind it's creation, and plan on continuing supporting what I think is a better product. I'm happy that penpot exists though to keep Figma in check from excessively pricing their product.
- danmur 2y ago
  I shudder to think what excessive pricing might look like to you :)
thallavajhula 2y ago
It is hard to replicate or actually compete with proper proprietary design tools. There's a ton of UX and performance enhancements that are done over the years and IMHO OSS can never get to that. I'm speaking specifically about design tools. There have been a lot of tools that have been around with not a lot of adoption. I like and appreciate the effort and it is definitely a massive effort to build these OSS alternatives to design tools, but it is hard to actually pick, use, and make them your daily drivers. Design tools is one of those categories of software where proprietary is definitely a better choice to choose over OSS.
- niutech 2y ago
  Krita is a great counterexample for your claim.
- keyle 2y ago
  People have been tooting the same horn for decades. And it's true, but if some OSS becomes mainstream, like Blender, all the sudden, the UX gets fixed.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Blender was a commercial product before becoming OSS, and some of the original folks are still around.
    - omnimus 2y ago
      Its just proves that UX can get better. Blender has had particularly bad UX (when it was commercial soft) and 3D is one of the most challenging software. Its just mostly about focus of the project and agency of people trying to make UX better.
      - yurishimo 2y ago
        Yea, the question really is will the OSS tool survive long enough to have the UX fixed. In Blender's case, yes, but that's not been true for many other OSS projects. Just look at how many dead electron projects are floating around the internet. Arguably it's more important to create software that solves a problem first so there is an incentive for people to keep using it. But the less people use it, the longer it will take for the UX to improve organically (see Blender and Inkscape).
tiku 2y ago
Penpot has a better export to code. I don't make a lot of graphical websites but I would use this if I had to make a lot of custom graphical pages with lots of code / functions in it.
vedmed 2y ago
Lunacy does this for free. And you don't need to log in. And it has a native linux client. https://icons8.com/lunacy https://icons8.com/lunacy
- memsom 2y ago
  Wow - it sounds very good on paper. It supports most of the features I would need to migrate to it also.
- margorczynski 2y ago
  But from what I see it is closed and proprietary?
mrweasel 2y ago
What is the fascination with Figma? Maybe my expectations are just wrong, but as long that it cannot generate reusable HTML templates and CSS from the mock-ups it's just a fancy Microsoft Publisher which doesn't make life easier for anyone but designers. If anything it only serves to move designers further away from the developers doing the implementation. Am I just holding it wrong?
- schpaencoder 2y ago
  I feel the same
- pavi2410 2y ago
  You are not wrong. Designer-developer handoff isn't smooth. Use of hard-coded pixel values throughout is difficult to get around. They even made the Dev mode a paid feature last I remember.
- Folcon 2y ago
  You're sort of missing the point? On that axis it's bad, on the axis of designers and people who value visual tools like that it's productivity and ease of use is off the charts, the number of people who I know jump on and find using the tool frankly joyful surprises me at times. It's executed very well for what it's doing, the fact that you can't export the outputs into code is in some sense incidental, because it's not a requirement that anyone I know who uses it cares much about.
- nicoburns 2y ago
  It's much better than publisher or photoshop for creating UI designs because it allows you to create reusable components that adjust properly when you resize them, etc. That's incredibly useful even if the output format is a flat png.
- notpastori 2y ago
  > doesn't make life easier for anyone but designers It may sound crazy to a developer, but Figma is a design tool for designers whose features and workflows respond to the needs of, indeed, designers.
bostonvaulter2 2y ago
Does anyone know what license this is released under? I looked for a few minutes on the site but I didn’t find it.
- MarceColl 2y ago
  MPL-2
- seedie 2y ago
  What I usually do for Open Source, instead of browsing the website, check on GitHub. https://github.com/penpot/penpot https://github.com/penpot/penpot The license on GitHub is featured prominently as MPL-2.0
croes 2y ago
With all these "wonderful" tools and frameworks how comes that the UX of the web is less and less pleasing? It's like we keep improving the brushes to please the artists but the pictures are crap. Since the rise of web applications I mainly learned one thing: Waiting.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
v3ss0n 2y ago
It's incrediblly slow and inefficient. Both client and sever. They need to rewrite in WASMb+ webgl for frontend.
- FractalHQ 2y ago
  When I saw they committed to using SVG as their renderer out of some philosophical principle around purity and “using the platform”, I knew the performance potential was doomed from the start. It’s was far too easy to grind penpot to a halt last I tried it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - v3ss0n 2y ago
    That is the biggest pain point. They are not even using canvas , let alone webgl/webgpu. We had tried designing and all it can casually handle is about 5 pages at the same time in a view , after than zoom become jittered and browser crashes started to happen. Also the server disconnects happen frequently ( i am running a quad core Xeon server with 64 GB Ram , it eats about 20GB of RAM and very slow) Downvote all you want bots , that is the truth. If you can try to come up with proper arguments.

294 points by noashavit 2y ago

Previous discussions: * Penpot 2.0 Released https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39978781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39978781 (131 points | 21 days ago | 27 comments) * Penpot: Open-source design and prototyping platform https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32851262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32851262 (1145 points | Sept 15, 2022 | 128 comments)

dudus 2y ago
On these previous comments it seems like no one bothered to try it. I wonder if we'll get some people with some better feedback this time around because the product does look stunning.
- LauraMedia 2y ago
  I've been using it for a year for my open source projects before I had a Figma license for contract work. I'd say it's VERY capable, performance can be iffy with enormously big files, but generally on-par with Figma. Their workflow is closer to webdev, so handover to devs is easier, but they lack some of the neat component magic of Figma (last time I've seen they don't have component changes for hover/click states for example). That being said, it's FOSS, anyone can help, they will never have a rugpull like almost getting bought by Adobe.

adpirz 2y ago

One of the things I was gobsmacked by the first time I used Figma years ago was its performance, which has only gotten better with time. From what I understand, they've built some custom stuff for WebGL for their renderer. Here it looks like it's powered by React. I'm curious if anyone's used both and can compare the performance of the two.

throwaway0665 2y ago
Figma is the gold standard when it comes to performance and optimization, and is basically a native app that happens to be inside your browser. The co-founder and previous CTO Evan Wallace also created esbuild which powers most of the modern bundling tools. The only other web app I can think of doing the same thing is Google Docs, which uses it's own canvas based renderer with an svg overlay for accessibility. I feel it's telling that Google thought leaning on their own browser (through HTML/CSS) wasn't even good enough for typesetting.
- purple-leafy 2y ago
  This Evan Wallace fella sounds like an accomplished individual
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Google Docs used to be Writely though; they acquired it. It predates Chrome.
  - nasso_dev 2y ago
    the switch to canvas rendering is recent though https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-Canvas-Based-Rendering-Update.html https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-...
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      Oh! I didn't know that. Fair enough - that does rather make the point.
- calebj0seph 2y ago
  It's becoming more common. Confluence whiteboards is all WebGL, even the text rendering.
lopkeny12ko 2y ago
I've seen people say this a lot, and I have the exact opposite takeaway. Figma is one of the slowest and laggiest applications I've ever used and a shining example to me of why we need to stop building rich software experiences in web browsers. On Linux + Firefox, basic navigation, like panning and zooming around in a file, is painfully laggy. In FigJam, try using the marker to draw any curved line--it updates at like 2 frames per second, which makes it completely unusable for handwriting text or drawing diagrams. Excalidraw, on the other hand, in the same browser, is perfectly lag-free. Every time a designer sends me a Figma I just ask for exported images because using the website is an exercise in frustration. And don't even get me started on the impossible, spaghetti-on-an-infinite-canvas UX requiring endless zooming and dragging...

lukew3 2y ago

I switched to penpot for a little bit after the Adobe acquisition was announced because I figured Figma as we knew it would cease to exist. However, I found that there were little differences between the two that gave it a learning curve and I noticed that I missed little niceities in Figma. I went back to it after a few weeks and after the acquisition was revoked, I feel better about sticking with Figma. I love the company and the story behind it's creation, and plan on continuing supporting what I think is a better product. I'm happy that penpot exists though to keep Figma in check from excessively pricing their product.

danmur 2y ago
I shudder to think what excessive pricing might look like to you :)

thallavajhula 2y ago

It is hard to replicate or actually compete with proper proprietary design tools. There's a ton of UX and performance enhancements that are done over the years and IMHO OSS can never get to that. I'm speaking specifically about design tools. There have been a lot of tools that have been around with not a lot of adoption. I like and appreciate the effort and it is definitely a massive effort to build these OSS alternatives to design tools, but it is hard to actually pick, use, and make them your daily drivers. Design tools is one of those categories of software where proprietary is definitely a better choice to choose over OSS.

niutech 2y ago
Krita is a great counterexample for your claim.
keyle 2y ago
People have been tooting the same horn for decades. And it's true, but if some OSS becomes mainstream, like Blender, all the sudden, the UX gets fixed.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Blender was a commercial product before becoming OSS, and some of the original folks are still around.
  - omnimus 2y ago
    Its just proves that UX can get better. Blender has had particularly bad UX (when it was commercial soft) and 3D is one of the most challenging software. Its just mostly about focus of the project and agency of people trying to make UX better.
    - yurishimo 2y ago
      Yea, the question really is will the OSS tool survive long enough to have the UX fixed. In Blender's case, yes, but that's not been true for many other OSS projects. Just look at how many dead electron projects are floating around the internet. Arguably it's more important to create software that solves a problem first so there is an incentive for people to keep using it. But the less people use it, the longer it will take for the UX to improve organically (see Blender and Inkscape).

tiku 2y ago

Penpot has a better export to code. I don't make a lot of graphical websites but I would use this if I had to make a lot of custom graphical pages with lots of code / functions in it.

vedmed 2y ago

Lunacy does this for free. And you don't need to log in. And it has a native linux client. https://icons8.com/lunacy https://icons8.com/lunacy

memsom 2y ago
Wow - it sounds very good on paper. It supports most of the features I would need to migrate to it also.
margorczynski 2y ago
But from what I see it is closed and proprietary?

mrweasel 2y ago

What is the fascination with Figma? Maybe my expectations are just wrong, but as long that it cannot generate reusable HTML templates and CSS from the mock-ups it's just a fancy Microsoft Publisher which doesn't make life easier for anyone but designers. If anything it only serves to move designers further away from the developers doing the implementation. Am I just holding it wrong?

schpaencoder 2y ago
I feel the same
pavi2410 2y ago
You are not wrong. Designer-developer handoff isn't smooth. Use of hard-coded pixel values throughout is difficult to get around. They even made the Dev mode a paid feature last I remember.
Folcon 2y ago
You're sort of missing the point? On that axis it's bad, on the axis of designers and people who value visual tools like that it's productivity and ease of use is off the charts, the number of people who I know jump on and find using the tool frankly joyful surprises me at times. It's executed very well for what it's doing, the fact that you can't export the outputs into code is in some sense incidental, because it's not a requirement that anyone I know who uses it cares much about.
nicoburns 2y ago
It's much better than publisher or photoshop for creating UI designs because it allows you to create reusable components that adjust properly when you resize them, etc. That's incredibly useful even if the output format is a flat png.
notpastori 2y ago
> doesn't make life easier for anyone but designers It may sound crazy to a developer, but Figma is a design tool for designers whose features and workflows respond to the needs of, indeed, designers.

bostonvaulter2 2y ago

Does anyone know what license this is released under? I looked for a few minutes on the site but I didn’t find it.

MarceColl 2y ago
MPL-2
seedie 2y ago
What I usually do for Open Source, instead of browsing the website, check on GitHub. https://github.com/penpot/penpot https://github.com/penpot/penpot The license on GitHub is featured prominently as MPL-2.0

croes 2y ago

With all these "wonderful" tools and frameworks how comes that the UX of the web is less and less pleasing? It's like we keep improving the brushes to please the artists but the pictures are crap. Since the rise of web applications I mainly learned one thing: Waiting.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

v3ss0n 2y ago

It's incrediblly slow and inefficient. Both client and sever. They need to rewrite in WASMb+ webgl for frontend.

FractalHQ 2y ago
When I saw they committed to using SVG as their renderer out of some philosophical principle around purity and “using the platform”, I knew the performance potential was doomed from the start. It’s was far too easy to grind penpot to a halt last I tried it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- v3ss0n 2y ago
  That is the biggest pain point. They are not even using canvas , let alone webgl/webgpu. We had tried designing and all it can casually handle is about 5 pages at the same time in a view , after than zoom become jittered and browser crashes started to happen. Also the server disconnects happen frequently ( i am running a quad core Xeon server with 64 GB Ram , it eats about 20GB of RAM and very slow) Downvote all you want bots , that is the truth. If you can try to come up with proper arguments.