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This is how it always seems to go. A huge segment of Americans still refer to the George Floyd protests as "George Floyd Riots" that "burned down" cities. It's,

This is how it always seems to go. A huge segment of Americans still refer to the George Floyd protests as "George Floyd Riots" that "burned down" cities. It's, obviously, a ridiculous characterization of an overwhelmingly peaceful nation-wide set of protests.

Georgelemental 2y ago
The Floyd riots did lead to several deaths and billions of dollars in damage, documentation of that is an internet search away. Completely different from the current round of protests against Israeli brutality (which, unlike "systemic racism", is actually real)
- Willish42 2y ago
  > which, unlike "systemic racism", is actually real If you truly think the concept of systemic racism does not exist, your warped perspective is probably beyond saving. The term itself dates back to the 60s and has a long history of academic and real-world relevance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism With where political discourse in developed nations has gotten, I really shouldn't be surprised, but I'm still honestly a bit shocked that somebody with access to a computer and presumably an education compatible with working in technology and posting on HN actually doubts that systemic racism exists in a country that has centuries of slavery in its founding history and numerous statistically proven cases of disproportionate policing of certain races of individuals. What an asinine comment! I don't think being this willfully ignorant is helping your cause here
  - Georgelemental 2y ago
    > The term itself dates back to the 60s Systemic racism did exist in the 60s, of course. (One good empirical test: during the era of Jim Crow, many black people tried to pass as white so as to gain access to the opportunities that were denied to black people. Does this still happen today, or is the reverse more likely?) > statistically proven cases of disproportionate policing of certain races of individuals Not when you look at the actual data: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1903856116 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1903856116 (Yes, the article is retracted. If you read the correction and rectraction, you will see that the authors stand by their results, and retracted only due to political pressure/politically incorrect people citing the study.)
    - Willish42 2y ago
      Fine, I'll bite. Here's the retraction statement, which I read in full. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014148117 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014148117 Some key quotes (emphasis added via italics) > Despite this correction, our work has continued to be cited as providing support for the idea that there are no racial biases in fatal shootings, or policing in general. To be clear, our work does not speak to these issues and should not be used to support such statements. We take full responsibility for not being careful enough with the inferences made in our original report, as this directly led to the misunderstanding of our research. > While our data and statistical approach were appropriate for investigating whether officer characteristics are related to the race of civilians fatally shot by police, they are inadequate to address racial disparities in the probability of being shot. Given these issues and the continued use of our work in the public debate on this topic, we have decided to retract the article. Here's a random hit I found on Google in less than 30 seconds: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-systemic-racism-continues-to-bring-down-black-peoples-quality-of-life https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-syst.... Note that this is PBS, not CNN or MSNBC or other "liberal" media sources. Here's two recent-ish studies from Harvard, which were also published: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/07/studies-find-evidence-of-systemic-racial-discrimination-across-multiple-domains-in-the-united-states/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/... Care to refute these, or do you just only believe data you've (mis-?)interpreted to match your existing world view? It seems to me that, at a minimum, your assertion that "systemic racism doesn't exist" is a controversial one in conflict with the retraction statement above from that papers' authors, and by the general public at large. I also find it interesting that you've moved the goal post from "doesn't exist" to "doesn't exist anymore", and seem to have found one study to support your claim, which has been retracted and -- by the authors' own admission, is insufficient evidence for the claim you're asserting from their study. I really don't agree with your assessment or disingenuous interpretation of the data on this issue. If you have any sort of scientific reason to convince me otherwise beyond "political correctness bad. you gotta read between the lines!", I'm all ears.
      - Georgelemental 2y ago
        > Here's a random hit I found on Google in less than 30 seconds: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-systemic-racism-continues-to-bring-down-black-peoples-quality-of-life https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-syst... > The index shows not only that median household income for Black people, at $43,862, is 37 precent less than that of white people, at $69,823. Black people also are less likely to benefit from home ownership, the engine of generational wealth in America. Census data shows Black couples are more than twice as likely as whites to be denied a mortgage or a home improvement loan, which leads to just 59 percent of the median home equity white households have, and just 13 percent of their wealth. These numbers just show that racial disparities exist. Which they obviously do! But disparities are not proof of discrimination, there are many other potential causes. > Here's two recent-ish studies from Harvard, which were also published: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/07/studies-find-evidence-of-systemic-racial-discrimination-across-multiple-domains-in-the-united-states/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/... The two studies measured reported discrimination. Which is not proof of actual systemic discrimination.
haberman 2y ago
Those "overwhelmingly peaceful" protests caused an estimated $1-2B in property damage, making them the most destructive protests (from an insurance perspective) in the last 50 years: https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots-cost-property-damage https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots-cost-property-damage
- userbinator 2y ago
  "fiery but mostly peaceful"
- the_gastropod 2y ago
  Don’t you find it weird that one of these “riots” locations is “across 20 states”, and the remainder have an actual… y’know, single location? Why are we comparing things this way to exaggerate damages and undermine the overwhelming majority of people peacefully protesting? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-black-lives-matter-protests-are-peaceful-despite-trump-narrative-report-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-bla...
  - haberman 2y ago
    Add up all the riots of 1965 - 1968 and it is still less damage than 2020. That's not an exaggeration, it is what the numbers say. If peaceful protestors find that fact undermining, they should take it up with the violent protestors who caused all this damage, rather than shooting the messenger.
    - the_gastropod 2y ago
      There are 8. Vs 20 states. These are not comparable in scale whatsoever.
ipaddr 2y ago
George Floyd Riots overwhelming peaceful? Not if we stick with facts. "arson, vandalism, and looting that occurred between May 26 and June 8 caused approximately $1–2 billion in insured damages nationally, the highest recorded damage from civil disorder in U.S. history, and surpassing the record set during the 1992 Los Angeles riots"
- the_gastropod 2y ago
  You’re comparing a nationwide set of protests against a single city. Is this number adjusted for inflation? Do you have any idea who caused this damage? I was arrested in Brooklyn during the protests. I was slammed into the glass window of the Junior’s cheesecake in downtown Brooklyn by several police officers, cracking the window. Who do you figure was blamed for that damage? We’re watching this scenario repeat right now. Some doofus students at Columbia broke a window, and the media’s losing its mind decrying the “violence”. Meanwhile, the NYPD is coming to the building with bulldozers, tanks, sledgehammers, and tear gas. (I literally did nothing to get arrested. The charges were dropped before my court case. Shocker) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-black-lives-matter-protests-are-peaceful-despite-trump-narrative-report-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-bla...

Georgelemental 2y ago

The Floyd riots did lead to several deaths and billions of dollars in damage, documentation of that is an internet search away. Completely different from the current round of protests against Israeli brutality (which, unlike "systemic racism", is actually real)

Willish42 2y ago
> which, unlike "systemic racism", is actually real If you truly think the concept of systemic racism does not exist, your warped perspective is probably beyond saving. The term itself dates back to the 60s and has a long history of academic and real-world relevance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism With where political discourse in developed nations has gotten, I really shouldn't be surprised, but I'm still honestly a bit shocked that somebody with access to a computer and presumably an education compatible with working in technology and posting on HN actually doubts that systemic racism exists in a country that has centuries of slavery in its founding history and numerous statistically proven cases of disproportionate policing of certain races of individuals. What an asinine comment! I don't think being this willfully ignorant is helping your cause here
- Georgelemental 2y ago
  > The term itself dates back to the 60s Systemic racism did exist in the 60s, of course. (One good empirical test: during the era of Jim Crow, many black people tried to pass as white so as to gain access to the opportunities that were denied to black people. Does this still happen today, or is the reverse more likely?) > statistically proven cases of disproportionate policing of certain races of individuals Not when you look at the actual data: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1903856116 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1903856116 (Yes, the article is retracted. If you read the correction and rectraction, you will see that the authors stand by their results, and retracted only due to political pressure/politically incorrect people citing the study.)
  - Willish42 2y ago
    Fine, I'll bite. Here's the retraction statement, which I read in full. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014148117 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014148117 Some key quotes (emphasis added via italics) > Despite this correction, our work has continued to be cited as providing support for the idea that there are no racial biases in fatal shootings, or policing in general. To be clear, our work does not speak to these issues and should not be used to support such statements. We take full responsibility for not being careful enough with the inferences made in our original report, as this directly led to the misunderstanding of our research. > While our data and statistical approach were appropriate for investigating whether officer characteristics are related to the race of civilians fatally shot by police, they are inadequate to address racial disparities in the probability of being shot. Given these issues and the continued use of our work in the public debate on this topic, we have decided to retract the article. Here's a random hit I found on Google in less than 30 seconds: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-systemic-racism-continues-to-bring-down-black-peoples-quality-of-life https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-syst.... Note that this is PBS, not CNN or MSNBC or other "liberal" media sources. Here's two recent-ish studies from Harvard, which were also published: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/07/studies-find-evidence-of-systemic-racial-discrimination-across-multiple-domains-in-the-united-states/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/... Care to refute these, or do you just only believe data you've (mis-?)interpreted to match your existing world view? It seems to me that, at a minimum, your assertion that "systemic racism doesn't exist" is a controversial one in conflict with the retraction statement above from that papers' authors, and by the general public at large. I also find it interesting that you've moved the goal post from "doesn't exist" to "doesn't exist anymore", and seem to have found one study to support your claim, which has been retracted and -- by the authors' own admission, is insufficient evidence for the claim you're asserting from their study. I really don't agree with your assessment or disingenuous interpretation of the data on this issue. If you have any sort of scientific reason to convince me otherwise beyond "political correctness bad. you gotta read between the lines!", I'm all ears.
    - Georgelemental 2y ago
      > Here's a random hit I found on Google in less than 30 seconds: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-systemic-racism-continues-to-bring-down-black-peoples-quality-of-life https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-syst... > The index shows not only that median household income for Black people, at $43,862, is 37 precent less than that of white people, at $69,823. Black people also are less likely to benefit from home ownership, the engine of generational wealth in America. Census data shows Black couples are more than twice as likely as whites to be denied a mortgage or a home improvement loan, which leads to just 59 percent of the median home equity white households have, and just 13 percent of their wealth. These numbers just show that racial disparities exist. Which they obviously do! But disparities are not proof of discrimination, there are many other potential causes. > Here's two recent-ish studies from Harvard, which were also published: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/07/studies-find-evidence-of-systemic-racial-discrimination-across-multiple-domains-in-the-united-states/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/... The two studies measured reported discrimination. Which is not proof of actual systemic discrimination.

haberman 2y ago

Those "overwhelmingly peaceful" protests caused an estimated $1-2B in property damage, making them the most destructive protests (from an insurance perspective) in the last 50 years: https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots-cost-property-damage https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots-cost-property-damage

userbinator 2y ago
"fiery but mostly peaceful"
the_gastropod 2y ago
Don’t you find it weird that one of these “riots” locations is “across 20 states”, and the remainder have an actual… y’know, single location? Why are we comparing things this way to exaggerate damages and undermine the overwhelming majority of people peacefully protesting? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-black-lives-matter-protests-are-peaceful-despite-trump-narrative-report-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-bla...
- haberman 2y ago
  Add up all the riots of 1965 - 1968 and it is still less damage than 2020. That's not an exaggeration, it is what the numbers say. If peaceful protestors find that fact undermining, they should take it up with the violent protestors who caused all this damage, rather than shooting the messenger.
  - the_gastropod 2y ago
    There are 8. Vs 20 states. These are not comparable in scale whatsoever.

ipaddr 2y ago

George Floyd Riots overwhelming peaceful? Not if we stick with facts. "arson, vandalism, and looting that occurred between May 26 and June 8 caused approximately $1–2 billion in insured damages nationally, the highest recorded damage from civil disorder in U.S. history, and surpassing the record set during the 1992 Los Angeles riots"

the_gastropod 2y ago
You’re comparing a nationwide set of protests against a single city. Is this number adjusted for inflation? Do you have any idea who caused this damage? I was arrested in Brooklyn during the protests. I was slammed into the glass window of the Junior’s cheesecake in downtown Brooklyn by several police officers, cracking the window. Who do you figure was blamed for that damage? We’re watching this scenario repeat right now. Some doofus students at Columbia broke a window, and the media’s losing its mind decrying the “violence”. Meanwhile, the NYPD is coming to the building with bulldozers, tanks, sledgehammers, and tear gas. (I literally did nothing to get arrested. The charges were dropped before my court case. Shocker) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-black-lives-matter-protests-are-peaceful-despite-trump-narrative-report-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-bla...