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In all honesty, tech people in EE show up to the office at 11 and take a legit one hour plus lunch break to eat proper food at the restaurant together. To ensur

In all honesty, tech people in EE show up to the office at 11 and take a legit one hour plus lunch break to eat proper food at the restaurant together. To ensure team cohesion of course. I'm not sure if that counts as a hard work or the result is simply better because you hire smart people and can't micromanage from SF due to 10h time zone difference. >German, French, and British government officials are the worst to deal with imo I would dread dealing with my countries government anything if I have time pressure. The result could be anything. In Western Europe I know that things will be done even if slow (ish).

alephnerd 3y ago
> tech people in EE show up to the office at 11 and take a legit one hour plus lunch break to eat proper food at the restaurant together Let's be honest, most techies do that from India to Israel to Poland to US. That said, Eastern Europeans are fine with occasionally partaking in crunchtime. Meanwhile, when I dealt with our Western European sales and engineering teams they would all ignore messages even if a Tier 1 critical customer's shit hit the fan. WLB is critical, but there are occasional exceptions that need to be made. Why should I pay the same amount that I would in Eastern Europe, Israel, or India for someone who won't help firefight.
- Muromec 3y ago
  If you are not providing critical infrastructure and people will not die, it's just you losing money, because your business is structured in a wrong way. You did it to yourself and should not expect people on salary to bear the cost of your wrong decisions. If you do provide critical infrastructure and people will die, it's also not my problem, because there will be a law requiring you to hire an SRE and a regulator to fine you to hell for not doing a good job too. Being a founder is your 24h job and you made a gamble to make big money in a capitalistic game. I didn't, I'm fine with making 5 liters of borscht on weekend and eating it through most of the week. It's not even WLB, it's not what I have signed up in this life.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    You're entitled to your opinion, just like I am entitled not hire you and hire an Israeli, Czech, Pole, or Indian for the same salary (and I have). Btw, I'm in the cybersecurity space, so a Tier 1 escalation generally means nation state attack or business stopping attack on a customer. > You did it to yourself and should not expect people on salary to bear the cost of your wrong decisions. Plenty of escalations are due to bugs. It's good to operate on a blameless model, but if I followed your model I'd gladly put the blame on engineers like you if the cause was found to be a dependency issue or a misconfiguration issue. Ofc, in the real world peers and I operate on a blameless model. Shit happens, but we need to fix our mistakes asap if they are made.
    - Muromec 3y ago
      Sure, escalations are result of mistakes people make. This is why businesses exists -- they have processes, quality control and all that stuff that ensures reliable outcome while consisting of individually unreliable things. That's the whole point and that's what you are supposed to get right. There are different strategies, and hiring people from exploitable jurisdictions is one. As all obvious strategies it has downsides and it will also stop working at some point in future which may be irrelevant for you.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - seba_dos1 3y ago
      If you want people to be available on call, hire and pay them for an on-call job. As simple as that.
anal_reactor 3y ago
> In all honesty, tech people in EE show up to the office at 11 and take a legit one hour plus lunch break to eat proper food at the restaurant together. Ah yes, the "work hard and the boss will notice" meme. I have zero incentive to work hard. 1. My salary is mostly tied to the market as a whole and particular company's performance, personal performance is the smallest bit of the equation. 2. Changing a variable from true to false on the personal request of someone very important will give me far more visibility than spending nights doing some work that only one other person is vaguely aware of, even if that work is super important. And visibility means chances for promotion. 3. Most companies are inherently undemocratic and employees have no input on decision making, therefore why would they care. 4. Most companies have proven that they're not afraid of screwing over their employees given the opportunity, so why wouldn't it work the other way around too. 5. In most cases, the reward for completing work early is more work. The punishment for being lazy is having free time. I'm sorry but that's the corporate reality. I'd love to be a part of a team that works hard together to achieve great things, but that's not how the world works. Being able to come to the office three hours late and leave two hours early without anyone complaining loud enough to get me fired is a much bigger job perk than Pizza Fridays.

alephnerd 3y ago

> tech people in EE show up to the office at 11 and take a legit one hour plus lunch break to eat proper food at the restaurant together Let's be honest, most techies do that from India to Israel to Poland to US. That said, Eastern Europeans are fine with occasionally partaking in crunchtime. Meanwhile, when I dealt with our Western European sales and engineering teams they would all ignore messages even if a Tier 1 critical customer's shit hit the fan. WLB is critical, but there are occasional exceptions that need to be made. Why should I pay the same amount that I would in Eastern Europe, Israel, or India for someone who won't help firefight.

Muromec 3y ago
If you are not providing critical infrastructure and people will not die, it's just you losing money, because your business is structured in a wrong way. You did it to yourself and should not expect people on salary to bear the cost of your wrong decisions. If you do provide critical infrastructure and people will die, it's also not my problem, because there will be a law requiring you to hire an SRE and a regulator to fine you to hell for not doing a good job too. Being a founder is your 24h job and you made a gamble to make big money in a capitalistic game. I didn't, I'm fine with making 5 liters of borscht on weekend and eating it through most of the week. It's not even WLB, it's not what I have signed up in this life.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  You're entitled to your opinion, just like I am entitled not hire you and hire an Israeli, Czech, Pole, or Indian for the same salary (and I have). Btw, I'm in the cybersecurity space, so a Tier 1 escalation generally means nation state attack or business stopping attack on a customer. > You did it to yourself and should not expect people on salary to bear the cost of your wrong decisions. Plenty of escalations are due to bugs. It's good to operate on a blameless model, but if I followed your model I'd gladly put the blame on engineers like you if the cause was found to be a dependency issue or a misconfiguration issue. Ofc, in the real world peers and I operate on a blameless model. Shit happens, but we need to fix our mistakes asap if they are made.
  - Muromec 3y ago
    Sure, escalations are result of mistakes people make. This is why businesses exists -- they have processes, quality control and all that stuff that ensures reliable outcome while consisting of individually unreliable things. That's the whole point and that's what you are supposed to get right. There are different strategies, and hiring people from exploitable jurisdictions is one. As all obvious strategies it has downsides and it will also stop working at some point in future which may be irrelevant for you.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    If you want people to be available on call, hire and pay them for an on-call job. As simple as that.

anal_reactor 3y ago

> In all honesty, tech people in EE show up to the office at 11 and take a legit one hour plus lunch break to eat proper food at the restaurant together. Ah yes, the "work hard and the boss will notice" meme. I have zero incentive to work hard. 1. My salary is mostly tied to the market as a whole and particular company's performance, personal performance is the smallest bit of the equation. 2. Changing a variable from true to false on the personal request of someone very important will give me far more visibility than spending nights doing some work that only one other person is vaguely aware of, even if that work is super important. And visibility means chances for promotion. 3. Most companies are inherently undemocratic and employees have no input on decision making, therefore why would they care. 4. Most companies have proven that they're not afraid of screwing over their employees given the opportunity, so why wouldn't it work the other way around too. 5. In most cases, the reward for completing work early is more work. The punishment for being lazy is having free time. I'm sorry but that's the corporate reality. I'd love to be a part of a team that works hard together to achieve great things, but that's not how the world works. Being able to come to the office three hours late and leave two hours early without anyone complaining loud enough to get me fired is a much bigger job perk than Pizza Fridays.