7 ms·

This misses the big one: California bans non-competes, bans anti-moonlighting clauses and lets you quit with no notice. If you’re at an EU company and need to g

This misses the big one: California bans non-competes, bans anti-moonlighting clauses and lets you quit with no notice. If you’re at an EU company and need to give 3+ months notice to quit that will discourage starting your own company on the side.

iamacyborg 2y ago
The flipside is your company can't just fire you at will, which is rather nice in this day and age.
- kldx 2y ago
  They could however do a restructuring, eliminating the exact role one's skillset matches. You get a couple of months of notice period which is no different from a severance package.
- y-curious 2y ago
  I'm not trying to be obtuse, but at what point do the worker protections discourage employment? If I have to pay the huge employee fees associated with the EU, I may just go hire someone in Asia.
  - elevatedastalt 2y ago
    From almost the beginning itself. Whenever you hire, you have to consider how hard it would be to get rid of the employee for whatever reason (underperformance, changing business needs etc.)
    - pas 2y ago
      employees as contractors is very common. this is a solved problem. and firing people is also not a mystery, interestingly PIPs are a US invention (but if labor laws are so lax, why were they needed there? :))
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  The solution to people’s income instability is government subsidy. Levying the costs of this risk on individual businesses both entrenches existing large players and disincentivizes new businesses.
  - marcinzm 2y ago
    The problem is that it doesn't matter who pays the cost. Let's say I live in the US where the social safety net isn't large and companies can fire me at will. Let's say I'm also competent and driven. Logically I focus on money because having a large bank account is the only safety net I can ever get. Since everyone understands the lack of a safety net trying to get large amounts of money is socially acceptable. Now lets' say I got lucky and never had to use that safety net but until one day I decide to start a business which means I will make 0 income for a year. Now I have money to cover my expenses as I try my hand at running a business. But given a strong safety net it'd be illogical to keep that much money around unless you're paranoid. You enjoy life, go on vacations, etc. Granted, the hoarding of money and drive to greater wealth eventually leads to a capitalistic dystopias with massive wealth inequality. But you get lots of startups!
- iteria 2y ago
  People always bring this up but in my 15 years of working in tech I've never seen anyone fired on the spot unless they really fuck up. Like cause the company serious financial or legal harm kind of fuck up. The tech layoffs get a lot of attention, but that's a tiny, tiny fraction of the US's tech labor pool and full of some of the most privileged employees of an already salary privileged set of workers. In reality what happens is you get 3 months notice of a firing in the form of PIP. Perhaps if you work at Walmart you can get fired on the spot, but honestly in industries where this is a common occupance, it's also well known that the employees also just don't give any notice at all either. They just stop showing up, maybe won't even give a 1 second of notice. Personally, I'm happy for at will as someone who has had a shitty. Shitty job that ate at my mental health. I just had to say "today is my last day" and I fucking left and that was that. Got a final pay check and paperwork for continuing my benefits if I wanted them and this was at a random company in a labor hostile state. In some place like California, they would have been required to pay my last paycheck that moment instead of when the never payment day was. I've seen employees work contacts that mandate notices by punishing you with legally enforced fines and whatnot and I just cannot see the benefit of being forced to give notice. It's just encourages your employer to make your life hell in that period if you're on bad terms and you had a good reason for leaving. Right to work laws can get bent though. That's active underminement of unions for no benefit at all for an employee.
alephnerd 2y ago
> If you’re at an EU company and need to give 3+ months notice to quit that will discourage starting your own company on the side. India has similar non-competes to Western Europe, but is able to maintain an innovation ecosystem.
- TooKool4This 2y ago
  India is very different than Europe. It would be difficult to attribute outcomes between the 2 countries to just this single difference without considering the many other differences.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Absolutely true, but I'm just pointing out that non-competes are not a major precursor for Europe's laggardness in innovation. If all of the EU's innovation system is sclerotic compared to Illinois or MA or India where non-competes are vindictively enforced, then there is a major issue.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
  India’s where offshoring from the us is. That maintains demand. India is also still industrializing. Expect India to look more like China - with similar economic pitfalls - in the next few decades. Some companies have already begun pulling from India because of costs and poor performance negating the labor savings. Some companies have figured this out and the non competes create a captive workforce but others are just wasting money trying to emulate.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > Expect India to look more like China - with similar economic pitfalls - in the next few decades Pretty much this. The best way to operate in India is to use a mixed Chinese and Israeli mindset tbh. > India’s where offshoring from the us is True, but there is a massive change now from the 2000s where it's just BPO. Literally the crown jewels of enterprise and deep tech and increasingly innovated and designed by the India teams directly (eg. the cybersecurity backbone of a major 5G telco in the US, the Apple mobile chips, Google Pay, etc).
lycos 2y ago
I have never seen a 3+ month notice to quit in the country I live, curious which country this happens in? Sounds extremely ridiculous if true
- marcinzm 2y ago
  My friend in Germany got that and had to pay a large fee to leave early to move to the US.
  - lores 2y ago
    That's very non-standard. Depending on what 'a large fee' means, it might even be illegal.
- simulosius 2y ago
  Germany. I once had a 3 month notice to the end of the quarter. It's not like everyone gets these but they're also not super-exotic.
- brodo 2y ago
  It's pretty common in Germany. Three months is standard; longer is possible. I worked as a researcher for a German university and had a six-month notice period. You can imagine how productive most people are during that time.
- rdm_blackhole 2y ago
  I am in Sweden, it's 3 months of notice here as well.
- burgos_thrw 2y ago
  I had it in two last jobs in Germany (and had to wait them and also when we hire and do roadmaps we know that the person will not start before the next or the quarter after the next) as all of my coworkers, except few. These were executive and had 6 months notice periods. Not that I complain, six months of rest and vest life wasn’t bad :-)
- GardenLetter27 2y ago
ta1243 2y ago
3 months notice tends to apply to people who have been there a hell of a long time. At least in the UK. My notice period is 3 months. I've also got 2 months of long service leave built up so in effect it's 1 month (as I can just take the 2 months notice) On the flip side if they make me redundant I get the best part of 18 months salary after paying taxes, and at least 5 months pay after they say its happening where I can look for another job. But OK, UK shot itself in the head with Brexit. Ireland speaks english natively, has low taxes (especially corporate ones), is easy to incorporate there, so how does notice apply? https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what_you_should_know/ending%20the%20employment%20relationship/minimum%20notice/ https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what_you_should_know/en... > Employees who have been in continuous employment for at least 13 weeks are obliged to provide their employer with one week’s notice of termination of employment. If a greater amount of notice is specified in the employee’s contract of employment, then this notice must be given. Oh no, a whole week! > Ten to fifteen years: Six weeks Of course your contract may be different, but there's no real legal impediment here.
- b800h 2y ago
  > 3 months notice tends to apply to people who have been there a hell of a long time. At least in the UK. Increasingly not the case. I'm seeing an awful lot of "One month in the first three months, three months thereafter". It used to be pretty universally one month.
throw0101b 2y ago
> If you’re at an EU company and need to give 3+ months notice to quit that will discourage starting your own company on the side. Notice to quit given by the employee is often the same time period as notice for termination given by the employer: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. * https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what%27s_good_for_the_goose_is_good_for_the_gander https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what%27s_good_for_the_goose_i...
Muromec 2y ago
It's usually 3+ months for the company.
pas 2y ago
how? you have 3 months of semi-free time. what will they do if you show up late and, fire you? don't be ridiculous. it's perfect for starting a company, working on your startup on the side.

iamacyborg 2y ago

The flipside is your company can't just fire you at will, which is rather nice in this day and age.

kldx 2y ago
They could however do a restructuring, eliminating the exact role one's skillset matches. You get a couple of months of notice period which is no different from a severance package.
y-curious 2y ago
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but at what point do the worker protections discourage employment? If I have to pay the huge employee fees associated with the EU, I may just go hire someone in Asia.
- elevatedastalt 2y ago
  From almost the beginning itself. Whenever you hire, you have to consider how hard it would be to get rid of the employee for whatever reason (underperformance, changing business needs etc.)
  - pas 2y ago
    employees as contractors is very common. this is a solved problem. and firing people is also not a mystery, interestingly PIPs are a US invention (but if labor laws are so lax, why were they needed there? :))
lotsofpulp 2y ago
The solution to people’s income instability is government subsidy. Levying the costs of this risk on individual businesses both entrenches existing large players and disincentivizes new businesses.
- marcinzm 2y ago
  The problem is that it doesn't matter who pays the cost. Let's say I live in the US where the social safety net isn't large and companies can fire me at will. Let's say I'm also competent and driven. Logically I focus on money because having a large bank account is the only safety net I can ever get. Since everyone understands the lack of a safety net trying to get large amounts of money is socially acceptable. Now lets' say I got lucky and never had to use that safety net but until one day I decide to start a business which means I will make 0 income for a year. Now I have money to cover my expenses as I try my hand at running a business. But given a strong safety net it'd be illogical to keep that much money around unless you're paranoid. You enjoy life, go on vacations, etc. Granted, the hoarding of money and drive to greater wealth eventually leads to a capitalistic dystopias with massive wealth inequality. But you get lots of startups!
iteria 2y ago
People always bring this up but in my 15 years of working in tech I've never seen anyone fired on the spot unless they really fuck up. Like cause the company serious financial or legal harm kind of fuck up. The tech layoffs get a lot of attention, but that's a tiny, tiny fraction of the US's tech labor pool and full of some of the most privileged employees of an already salary privileged set of workers. In reality what happens is you get 3 months notice of a firing in the form of PIP. Perhaps if you work at Walmart you can get fired on the spot, but honestly in industries where this is a common occupance, it's also well known that the employees also just don't give any notice at all either. They just stop showing up, maybe won't even give a 1 second of notice. Personally, I'm happy for at will as someone who has had a shitty. Shitty job that ate at my mental health. I just had to say "today is my last day" and I fucking left and that was that. Got a final pay check and paperwork for continuing my benefits if I wanted them and this was at a random company in a labor hostile state. In some place like California, they would have been required to pay my last paycheck that moment instead of when the never payment day was. I've seen employees work contacts that mandate notices by punishing you with legally enforced fines and whatnot and I just cannot see the benefit of being forced to give notice. It's just encourages your employer to make your life hell in that period if you're on bad terms and you had a good reason for leaving. Right to work laws can get bent though. That's active underminement of unions for no benefit at all for an employee.

alephnerd 2y ago

> If you’re at an EU company and need to give 3+ months notice to quit that will discourage starting your own company on the side. India has similar non-competes to Western Europe, but is able to maintain an innovation ecosystem.

TooKool4This 2y ago
India is very different than Europe. It would be difficult to attribute outcomes between the 2 countries to just this single difference without considering the many other differences.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Absolutely true, but I'm just pointing out that non-competes are not a major precursor for Europe's laggardness in innovation. If all of the EU's innovation system is sclerotic compared to Illinois or MA or India where non-competes are vindictively enforced, then there is a major issue.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
India’s where offshoring from the us is. That maintains demand. India is also still industrializing. Expect India to look more like China - with similar economic pitfalls - in the next few decades. Some companies have already begun pulling from India because of costs and poor performance negating the labor savings. Some companies have figured this out and the non competes create a captive workforce but others are just wasting money trying to emulate.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > Expect India to look more like China - with similar economic pitfalls - in the next few decades Pretty much this. The best way to operate in India is to use a mixed Chinese and Israeli mindset tbh. > India’s where offshoring from the us is True, but there is a massive change now from the 2000s where it's just BPO. Literally the crown jewels of enterprise and deep tech and increasingly innovated and designed by the India teams directly (eg. the cybersecurity backbone of a major 5G telco in the US, the Apple mobile chips, Google Pay, etc).

lycos 2y ago

I have never seen a 3+ month notice to quit in the country I live, curious which country this happens in? Sounds extremely ridiculous if true

marcinzm 2y ago
My friend in Germany got that and had to pay a large fee to leave early to move to the US.
- lores 2y ago
  That's very non-standard. Depending on what 'a large fee' means, it might even be illegal.
simulosius 2y ago
Germany. I once had a 3 month notice to the end of the quarter. It's not like everyone gets these but they're also not super-exotic.
brodo 2y ago
It's pretty common in Germany. Three months is standard; longer is possible. I worked as a researcher for a German university and had a six-month notice period. You can imagine how productive most people are during that time.
rdm_blackhole 2y ago
I am in Sweden, it's 3 months of notice here as well.
burgos_thrw 2y ago
I had it in two last jobs in Germany (and had to wait them and also when we hire and do roadmaps we know that the person will not start before the next or the quarter after the next) as all of my coworkers, except few. These were executive and had 6 months notice periods. Not that I complain, six months of rest and vest life wasn’t bad :-)
GardenLetter27 2y ago

ta1243 2y ago

3 months notice tends to apply to people who have been there a hell of a long time. At least in the UK. My notice period is 3 months. I've also got 2 months of long service leave built up so in effect it's 1 month (as I can just take the 2 months notice) On the flip side if they make me redundant I get the best part of 18 months salary after paying taxes, and at least 5 months pay after they say its happening where I can look for another job. But OK, UK shot itself in the head with Brexit. Ireland speaks english natively, has low taxes (especially corporate ones), is easy to incorporate there, so how does notice apply? https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what_you_should_know/ending%20the%20employment%20relationship/minimum%20notice/ https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what_you_should_know/en... > Employees who have been in continuous employment for at least 13 weeks are obliged to provide their employer with one week’s notice of termination of employment. If a greater amount of notice is specified in the employee’s contract of employment, then this notice must be given. Oh no, a whole week! > Ten to fifteen years: Six weeks Of course your contract may be different, but there's no real legal impediment here.

b800h 2y ago
> 3 months notice tends to apply to people who have been there a hell of a long time. At least in the UK. Increasingly not the case. I'm seeing an awful lot of "One month in the first three months, three months thereafter". It used to be pretty universally one month.

throw0101b 2y ago

> If you’re at an EU company and need to give 3+ months notice to quit that will discourage starting your own company on the side. Notice to quit given by the employee is often the same time period as notice for termination given by the employer: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. * https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what%27s_good_for_the_goose_is_good_for_the_gander https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what%27s_good_for_the_goose_i...

Muromec 2y ago

It's usually 3+ months for the company.

pas 2y ago

how? you have 3 months of semi-free time. what will they do if you show up late and, fire you? don't be ridiculous. it's perfect for starting a company, working on your startup on the side.