8 ms·

Razer made to pay $1.2M over 'N95' face mask that wasn't

107 points by LorenDB 3y ago

blendergeek 3y ago
What I want to know: if they had submitted the mask for testing, would it have passed? I agree there should be a fine given that "N95" refers to masks that have actually passed NIOSH testing, but I think it interesting to know if the mask worked. If the masks worked, there was never a risk to public health.
- briffle 3y ago
  I want to know how much they made selling them? If they made $30m, and they get fined $1.2, that isn't really much deterrent...
  - doctoboggan 3y ago
    The article claimed that the fine is 100% of the revenue from the sales of the mislabeled masks: > The vote approving the complaint and proposed order was passed 3-0, and the FTC will use the $1.1 million sum, equal to revenue generated by the Zephyr, to provide full refunds to customers.
    - ungreased0675 3y ago
      That doesn’t seem like much of a deterrent.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    Well also, IIUC about 3% of americans died from covid so assuming each Zypher mask cost $100 then out of the ~10,000 customers 30 of them died.
    - recursive 3y ago
      This is assuming that there's zero correlation between mask usage and dying from covid. That hasn't been established.
    - nrml_amnt 3y ago
      Did you mean .3% ?
      - lesuorac 3y ago
        Yeah, 30/10k is .3% so that part is correct.
- cdchn 3y ago
  Or were the filter elements already submitted for N95 rating and Razer thought that the rating was transitive rather than having to get the entire apparatus certified.
  - quartesixte 3y ago
    The generous reading is this. And I don’t exactly blame whoever interpreted the regulations like that. However, they really should have gotten a lawyer or consultant specializing in health product regulations.
    - eschneider 3y ago
      I absolutely blame them. You don't YOLO health and safety regulations.
    - dmd 3y ago
      I do blame whoever interpreted the regulations like that, as the regulations about this stuff are crystal clear that it is the whole device that is tested, not a component.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    As pointed out in the actual complaint [1], Razr was aware their masks did not perform at the N95 level and were told by the testing agencies "Cannot mentioned N95. Hazel mask is not a N95 respirator. " and "cannot mentioned NIOSH or NIOSH-certified respirators.". Of course, they did anywas. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40214045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40214045
- trvz 3y ago
  Reading the article, I was sorely missing this as well. For me, this story erodes confidence in the FTC, not Razer.
  - neura 3y ago
    How does this erode your confidence in the FTC? Maybe you missed the FTC report where they stated the maximum filtration they were able to reach was 86% and that was the maximum, with most tests hitting much lower. Even calling the mask "N95 Grade", which is an obvious statement that it didn't pass actual testing, is a major problem. It's vague enough that most will believe that it is equivalent to one that has actually passed testing. When it's supposed to catch 95% and catches 10% less, that's _triple_ the amount of crap passing through. If you read through the FTC documents, you can see that they (Razer) knew it would not pass and so went with the strategy of getting people to believe that it was the same, without any proof. The FTC could not prevent them from releasing the product or immediately cause them to remove it from market as Razer did not claim that it was N95 certified. Razer knew exactly what they were doing in getting around this and now they're paying the price for doing so, while the FTC sets an example for others that "if you even imply that your product is equivalent to being certified, we'll pin you for it."
- burkaman 3y ago
  No, they did have them tested and knew they wouldn't pass NIOSH testing. Page 17: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1-Complaint.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1.... I encourage everyone to read the complaint, there is no grey area here and no accidents. This was explicit fraudulent behavior by executives (including the CEO) who knew their mask didn't work very well, knew what "N95" means and that their mask couldn't qualify, and made many conscious decisions to lie to the public anyway.
  - hex4def6 3y ago
    Jeez. It's one thing to not do the testing, call it N95, and then say "oopsie, we didn't realize". It's another to actually do the testing, discover it doesn't pass, and sell it as N95 anyway. That is a pretty good "willfully fraudulent" argument rather than "accidently overstating performance".
doctoboggan 3y ago
It is a little unclear from reading the article. Is the claim that their filters were not as effective as N95 masks, or that they were just as effective but did not go through the testing needed to prove it?
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Well, if they were never tested, then that question would seem impossible to answer.
- notaustinpowers 3y ago
  They never had them tested and so could not advertise them as N95-rated. Razer pulled them from the market and any information on whether they were ever retroactively tested has never been released AFAIK.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Page 17-18: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1-Complaint.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1... > In July, August, and September of 2021, Intertek performed tests assessing the PFE of various assembled Zephyr prototypes. In each test, the assembled device failed to perform to the N95 standard of 95% or greater PFE. Figure 13, infra, depicts the best results ever reached for the device in testing: as documented in Intertek’s August 13, 2021 report, the device reached a maximum PFE of 83.2% with the fans off and 86.3% with the fans on, and frequently tested much lower. The mask did not come close to consistently reaching a PFE of 95%, the level of protection characteristic of an N95 mask. > Thus, while Razer’s CEO was claiming that the Zephyr was a more comfortable, reusable N95, see supra ¶¶ 46-47, internal communications reveal that Defendants knew the mask could not provide the level of protection offered by an N95.
- burkaman 3y ago
  See page 17: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1-Complaint.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1.... They were not even close, they knew they weren't close, and senior executives removed disclaimers that would have warned the mask wasn't as effective as real PPE. > In July, August, and September of 2021, Intertek performed tests assessing the PFE of various assembled Zephyr prototypes. In each test, the assembled device failed to perform to the N95 standard of 95% or greater PFE. Figure 13, infra, depicts the best results ever reached for the device in testing: as documented in Intertek’s August 13, 2021 report, the device reached a maximum PFE of 83.2% with the fans off and 86.3% with the fans on, and frequently tested much lower. The mask did not come close to consistently reaching a PFE of 95%, the level of protection characteristic of an N95 mask.
cdchn 3y ago
Its too bad this went off the rails so bad. I was very interested in the Razer-- despite the RGB it would have been cool to have a silicon sealing mask thats less industrial than a 3m Respirator mask, had a window so you could see someones mouth, and used a fan to help overcome the resistance of the filter element. If the availability wasn't at "practically unobtainable" levels I probably would have gotten one.
buyreddit 3y ago
[flagged]
dc3k 3y ago
A tech company doing sketchy things and skirting regulations? Why I never!
TheBlight 3y ago
I mean it was probably at least as effective against covid as the Etsy masks people were selling that were made from regular fabric and whatever other nonsense. Probably shouldn't have used "N95" though. Doubt they would've even needed to at the time.
- imglorp 3y ago
  At the peak of the pandemic, there wasn't much supply so everyone was trying to reserve N95 for healthcare workers. The official advice (US) at the time was use fabric, it's better than nothing and it catches some droplets.
- jerlam 3y ago
  Eh, the Zephyr was only released in October 2021, not in the middle of 2020 when fabric masks were in vogue. N95s were much easier to get in mid-2021, not that many people were buying them. In early 2022 they were given away for free in drugstores and even then not many people were taking them.
- peddling-brink 3y ago
  > Probably shouldn't have used "N95" though. That’s the entire point. Nobody would have cared otherwise.
- neura 3y ago
  "Probably shouldn't have used N95 though"... gee, ya think? :P I would like to think that it's clear to everybody that they absolutely should not have claimed that it's even "N95 Grade", which clearly indicates that it's an approved as N95, but is roughly similar. The actual stats are that it reached, at maximum, with the fan running, 86.3% filtration. That's almost 3x the amount of crap getting through than an actual N95 certified mask (without needing a fan).
jeffwask 3y ago
After they tried slipping a bitcoin miner in their mouse software that paid you in Razer Points, I was done with Razer. This seems on brand.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  Some anti virus software used to do the same crypto mining gimmick.
- consumer451 3y ago
  While not a recommendation, I mentioned the Razer gaming laptop to a co-worker. He bought one, it started to de-laminate and bend itself into a potato chip. I had never seen anything like it. They would not take a return, he had to do a credit card charge back, and blamed me forever. Their laptops had a 50% failure rate at Linus Media Group, according to Luke during a WAN Show. Linus kept pushing them on his viewers though. This was years ago, and I will never understand how the company was not shamed into bankruptcy. Well, I guess I do understand. You can buy favorable media coverage and it scares the crap out of me.
  - kevingadd 3y ago
    My sister had issues with her Razer laptop that ended up leading to needing new case screws so she could reassemble it after replacing a faulty battery and repairing a bad trackpad. They didn't have replacement screws, period. We had to buy them from a third party on Amazon. Kind of a clown company between that experience and every time I've bought one of their mice or keyboards (I learned my lesson after the third time...)
    - consumer451 3y ago
      Yeah, now that you mention it, looking back, I assume it was likely a battery swelling, after one month of use. However, he and I were not close and he was already pissed at me. I didn't offer to take a look.
  - billy99k 3y ago
jasonpeacock 3y ago
This issue was first highlighted by Naomi Wu who called them out, which led to them dropping the N95 claims: https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1480445168356519938 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/148044516835651993...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- civilrights 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
    Give an example of what you're talking about.
    - civilrights 3y ago
      I'll tell you this. This website, just like reddit since about 2006-07, shadowbans popular right-leaning posts and leaves ones that the community down rates up. You are on what is very likely a site infiltrated by China...
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
        You still have not provided any examples. Where are your URLs?
        civilrights 3y ago
        I have no doubt you are the smartest person you know.
- riedel 3y ago
  It is a tragedy that she obviously had to stop all her public activities [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37154414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37154414
HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
>The Register asked Razer to comment, and a spokesperson told us: "We disagree with the FTC's allegations and did not admit to any wrongdoing as part of the settlement. It was never our intention to mislead anyone, and we chose to settle this matter to avoid the distraction and disruption of litigation and continue our focus on creating great products for gamers. The zero-accountability culture of capitalist corporatism needs to be cast into a scorching lava pit.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
taylorfinley 3y ago
I had a pair of $100 Anker ANC headphones physically break on me but didn't have the box to return them in, and the Ankers were out of stock. For some reason Walmart's returns department's solution was for me to find a different headset with the exact same price to swap. The only matching set was a Razer Barracuda X, and oh boy were they terrible. I have never hated a consumer product so much in my entire life. These ANC headphones didn't support Bluetooth at all, while other models with the same name did. In 2024, for $100, a wireless headset that only functions with the included dongle?! I made peace with it and got used to swapping the dongle to each device I use. Because of the poor dongle design it couldn't fit in my phone without removing the phone's case, so I listened to podcasts with my case off. Within the first two days the dongle just completely stopped working. Complete garbage. Not only that but the audio quality was horrible, the microphone sounded like a rotary phone, they were huge and bulky and hot to wear. When I contacted support asking for a new dongle they emailed me back the same template six times from three different representatives as if I hadn't answered all of their questions each time, and they wanted me to send the entire headset back to get a replacement. I left the experience thinking "Wow, this garbage company must hate their customers." Even after all that, I didn't realize they hated their customers enough to install bitcoin miners on their mouse drivers or to sell them fake N95 masks. The punishment here doesn't even come close to justice, if anyone got sick the executives in charge of bringing those masks to market should be held criminally liable.

107 points by LorenDB 3y ago

What I want to know: if they had submitted the mask for testing, would it have passed? I agree there should be a fine given that "N95" refers to masks that have actually passed NIOSH testing, but I think it interesting to know if the mask worked. If the masks worked, there was never a risk to public health.

briffle 3y ago
I want to know how much they made selling them? If they made $30m, and they get fined $1.2, that isn't really much deterrent...
- doctoboggan 3y ago
  The article claimed that the fine is 100% of the revenue from the sales of the mislabeled masks: > The vote approving the complaint and proposed order was passed 3-0, and the FTC will use the $1.1 million sum, equal to revenue generated by the Zephyr, to provide full refunds to customers.
  - ungreased0675 3y ago
    That doesn’t seem like much of a deterrent.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  Well also, IIUC about 3% of americans died from covid so assuming each Zypher mask cost $100 then out of the ~10,000 customers 30 of them died.
  - recursive 3y ago
    This is assuming that there's zero correlation between mask usage and dying from covid. That hasn't been established.
  - nrml_amnt 3y ago
    Did you mean .3% ?
    - lesuorac 3y ago
      Yeah, 30/10k is .3% so that part is correct.
cdchn 3y ago
Or were the filter elements already submitted for N95 rating and Razer thought that the rating was transitive rather than having to get the entire apparatus certified.
- quartesixte 3y ago
  The generous reading is this. And I don’t exactly blame whoever interpreted the regulations like that. However, they really should have gotten a lawyer or consultant specializing in health product regulations.
  - eschneider 3y ago
    I absolutely blame them. You don't YOLO health and safety regulations.
  - dmd 3y ago
    I do blame whoever interpreted the regulations like that, as the regulations about this stuff are crystal clear that it is the whole device that is tested, not a component.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  As pointed out in the actual complaint [1], Razr was aware their masks did not perform at the N95 level and were told by the testing agencies "Cannot mentioned N95. Hazel mask is not a N95 respirator. " and "cannot mentioned NIOSH or NIOSH-certified respirators.". Of course, they did anywas. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40214045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40214045
trvz 3y ago
Reading the article, I was sorely missing this as well. For me, this story erodes confidence in the FTC, not Razer.
- neura 3y ago
  How does this erode your confidence in the FTC? Maybe you missed the FTC report where they stated the maximum filtration they were able to reach was 86% and that was the maximum, with most tests hitting much lower. Even calling the mask "N95 Grade", which is an obvious statement that it didn't pass actual testing, is a major problem. It's vague enough that most will believe that it is equivalent to one that has actually passed testing. When it's supposed to catch 95% and catches 10% less, that's _triple_ the amount of crap passing through. If you read through the FTC documents, you can see that they (Razer) knew it would not pass and so went with the strategy of getting people to believe that it was the same, without any proof. The FTC could not prevent them from releasing the product or immediately cause them to remove it from market as Razer did not claim that it was N95 certified. Razer knew exactly what they were doing in getting around this and now they're paying the price for doing so, while the FTC sets an example for others that "if you even imply that your product is equivalent to being certified, we'll pin you for it."
burkaman 3y ago
No, they did have them tested and knew they wouldn't pass NIOSH testing. Page 17: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1-Complaint.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1.... I encourage everyone to read the complaint, there is no grey area here and no accidents. This was explicit fraudulent behavior by executives (including the CEO) who knew their mask didn't work very well, knew what "N95" means and that their mask couldn't qualify, and made many conscious decisions to lie to the public anyway.
- hex4def6 3y ago
  Jeez. It's one thing to not do the testing, call it N95, and then say "oopsie, we didn't realize". It's another to actually do the testing, discover it doesn't pass, and sell it as N95 anyway. That is a pretty good "willfully fraudulent" argument rather than "accidently overstating performance".

doctoboggan 3y ago

It is a little unclear from reading the article. Is the claim that their filters were not as effective as N95 masks, or that they were just as effective but did not go through the testing needed to prove it?

rsynnott 3y ago
Well, if they were never tested, then that question would seem impossible to answer.
notaustinpowers 3y ago
They never had them tested and so could not advertise them as N95-rated. Razer pulled them from the market and any information on whether they were ever retroactively tested has never been released AFAIK.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Page 17-18: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1-Complaint.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1... > In July, August, and September of 2021, Intertek performed tests assessing the PFE of various assembled Zephyr prototypes. In each test, the assembled device failed to perform to the N95 standard of 95% or greater PFE. Figure 13, infra, depicts the best results ever reached for the device in testing: as documented in Intertek’s August 13, 2021 report, the device reached a maximum PFE of 83.2% with the fans off and 86.3% with the fans on, and frequently tested much lower. The mask did not come close to consistently reaching a PFE of 95%, the level of protection characteristic of an N95 mask. > Thus, while Razer’s CEO was claiming that the Zephyr was a more comfortable, reusable N95, see supra ¶¶ 46-47, internal communications reveal that Defendants knew the mask could not provide the level of protection offered by an N95.
burkaman 3y ago
See page 17: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1-Complaint.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Razer-PACER-No1.... They were not even close, they knew they weren't close, and senior executives removed disclaimers that would have warned the mask wasn't as effective as real PPE. > In July, August, and September of 2021, Intertek performed tests assessing the PFE of various assembled Zephyr prototypes. In each test, the assembled device failed to perform to the N95 standard of 95% or greater PFE. Figure 13, infra, depicts the best results ever reached for the device in testing: as documented in Intertek’s August 13, 2021 report, the device reached a maximum PFE of 83.2% with the fans off and 86.3% with the fans on, and frequently tested much lower. The mask did not come close to consistently reaching a PFE of 95%, the level of protection characteristic of an N95 mask.

cdchn 3y ago

Its too bad this went off the rails so bad. I was very interested in the Razer-- despite the RGB it would have been cool to have a silicon sealing mask thats less industrial than a 3m Respirator mask, had a window so you could see someones mouth, and used a fan to help overcome the resistance of the filter element. If the availability wasn't at "practically unobtainable" levels I probably would have gotten one.

buyreddit 3y ago

[flagged]

dc3k 3y ago

A tech company doing sketchy things and skirting regulations? Why I never!

TheBlight 3y ago

I mean it was probably at least as effective against covid as the Etsy masks people were selling that were made from regular fabric and whatever other nonsense. Probably shouldn't have used "N95" though. Doubt they would've even needed to at the time.

imglorp 3y ago
At the peak of the pandemic, there wasn't much supply so everyone was trying to reserve N95 for healthcare workers. The official advice (US) at the time was use fabric, it's better than nothing and it catches some droplets.
jerlam 3y ago
Eh, the Zephyr was only released in October 2021, not in the middle of 2020 when fabric masks were in vogue. N95s were much easier to get in mid-2021, not that many people were buying them. In early 2022 they were given away for free in drugstores and even then not many people were taking them.
peddling-brink 3y ago
> Probably shouldn't have used "N95" though. That’s the entire point. Nobody would have cared otherwise.
neura 3y ago
"Probably shouldn't have used N95 though"... gee, ya think? :P I would like to think that it's clear to everybody that they absolutely should not have claimed that it's even "N95 Grade", which clearly indicates that it's an approved as N95, but is roughly similar. The actual stats are that it reached, at maximum, with the fan running, 86.3% filtration. That's almost 3x the amount of crap getting through than an actual N95 certified mask (without needing a fan).

jeffwask 3y ago

After they tried slipping a bitcoin miner in their mouse software that paid you in Razer Points, I was done with Razer. This seems on brand.

Rinzler89 3y ago
Some anti virus software used to do the same crypto mining gimmick.
consumer451 3y ago
While not a recommendation, I mentioned the Razer gaming laptop to a co-worker. He bought one, it started to de-laminate and bend itself into a potato chip. I had never seen anything like it. They would not take a return, he had to do a credit card charge back, and blamed me forever. Their laptops had a 50% failure rate at Linus Media Group, according to Luke during a WAN Show. Linus kept pushing them on his viewers though. This was years ago, and I will never understand how the company was not shamed into bankruptcy. Well, I guess I do understand. You can buy favorable media coverage and it scares the crap out of me.
- kevingadd 3y ago
  My sister had issues with her Razer laptop that ended up leading to needing new case screws so she could reassemble it after replacing a faulty battery and repairing a bad trackpad. They didn't have replacement screws, period. We had to buy them from a third party on Amazon. Kind of a clown company between that experience and every time I've bought one of their mice or keyboards (I learned my lesson after the third time...)
  - consumer451 3y ago
    Yeah, now that you mention it, looking back, I assume it was likely a battery swelling, after one month of use. However, he and I were not close and he was already pissed at me. I didn't offer to take a look.
- billy99k 3y ago

jasonpeacock 3y ago

This issue was first highlighted by Naomi Wu who called them out, which led to them dropping the N95 claims: https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1480445168356519938 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/148044516835651993...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
civilrights 3y ago
[flagged]
- HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
  Give an example of what you're talking about.
  - civilrights 3y ago
    I'll tell you this. This website, just like reddit since about 2006-07, shadowbans popular right-leaning posts and leaves ones that the community down rates up. You are on what is very likely a site infiltrated by China...
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
      You still have not provided any examples. Where are your URLs?
      - civilrights 3y ago
        I have no doubt you are the smartest person you know.
riedel 3y ago
It is a tragedy that she obviously had to stop all her public activities [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37154414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37154414

HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago

>The Register asked Razer to comment, and a spokesperson told us: "We disagree with the FTC's allegations and did not admit to any wrongdoing as part of the settlement. It was never our intention to mislead anyone, and we chose to settle this matter to avoid the distraction and disruption of litigation and continue our focus on creating great products for gamers. The zero-accountability culture of capitalist corporatism needs to be cast into a scorching lava pit.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

taylorfinley 3y ago

I had a pair of $100 Anker ANC headphones physically break on me but didn't have the box to return them in, and the Ankers were out of stock. For some reason Walmart's returns department's solution was for me to find a different headset with the exact same price to swap. The only matching set was a Razer Barracuda X, and oh boy were they terrible. I have never hated a consumer product so much in my entire life. These ANC headphones didn't support Bluetooth at all, while other models with the same name did. In 2024, for $100, a wireless headset that only functions with the included dongle?! I made peace with it and got used to swapping the dongle to each device I use. Because of the poor dongle design it couldn't fit in my phone without removing the phone's case, so I listened to podcasts with my case off. Within the first two days the dongle just completely stopped working. Complete garbage. Not only that but the audio quality was horrible, the microphone sounded like a rotary phone, they were huge and bulky and hot to wear. When I contacted support asking for a new dongle they emailed me back the same template six times from three different representatives as if I hadn't answered all of their questions each time, and they wanted me to send the entire headset back to get a replacement. I left the experience thinking "Wow, this garbage company must hate their customers." Even after all that, I didn't realize they hated their customers enough to install bitcoin miners on their mouse drivers or to sell them fake N95 masks. The punishment here doesn't even come close to justice, if anyone got sick the executives in charge of bringing those masks to market should be held criminally liable.