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> We typically distinguish UNIX® which is everybody who has money and wanted to say they're Unix, from just Unix, meaning the things that in practice behave li

by znpy 3y ago

> We typically distinguish UNIX® which is everybody who has money and wanted to say they're Unix, from just Unix, meaning the things that in practice behave like Unix. From what i've seen Apple gets every Mac Os release UNIX-certified, which is somewhat cool. But frankly, is it of any actual relevance ? Nowadays it's gnu/linux in (probably) 95-98% of the industry and the rest is likely to be shared across FreeBSD and a few other players. But in general, I'd say any "POSIX implementation" that's not been certified should not be taken any seriously: as an example, i had a friend that was working with the Zephyr RTOS which claimed to have some kind of posix compliance... Except it wasn't full and it broke in subtle ways. Still a good RTOS (it seems, not my area of expertise) but the "posix compliat" claim should be taken with many grains of salt probably.

jasomill 3y ago
Compliance with various POSIX standards remains useful and relevant, though the only list of actually certified products I can find[1] includes only RTOSes. Even without certification, POSIX remains a useful baseline for implementing and consuming cross-platform system services, taken with your suggested grains of salt on the consumer side for any details not specifically documented as POSIX-compliant. UNIX certification seems mostly only relevant in terms of OS marketing, in the sense that it signifies a vendor's intention to provide a usable POSIX-ish programming environment. As a target for cross-platform application developers, the list of certified UNIX platforms is at best weirdly specific: macOS: supported AIX: supported, though even IBM seems to prefer Linux for new development; IBM-supported Linux runs natively alongside AIX on the same hardware, further limiting appeal z/OS: supported, but only a "UNIX system" in that it offers a POSIX compatibility layer on top of a system that's fundamentally non-POSIX in design (EBCDIC, expensive process creation, etc.); IBM-supported Linux runs natively alongside z/OS on the same hardware, further limiting appeal HP-UX: supported until 2025-12-31; Itanium-only SCO UnixWare and OpenServer: supported (?), but no substantial updates since 2018 (?) [1] https://posix.opengroup.org/register.html https://posix.opengroup.org/register.html
iforgotmysocks 3y ago
> From what i've seen Apple gets every Mac Os release UNIX-certified, which is somewhat cool. I reckon it is because of the lawsuit they got because they used unix in marketing without actually paying for the certificate. see - https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix-compliant-certified https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix...
sillywalk 3y ago
Certified Unix. The source link has more details: Apple Inc.: macOS version 14.0 Sonoma on Apple silicon-based Mac computers Apple Inc.: macOS version 14.0 Sonoma on Intel-based Mac computers IBM Corporation: z/OS 3.1 or later with: z/OS 3.1 or later Security Server and z/OS 3.1 or later C/C++ Compiler on IBM Series Processors that support z/OS Version 3.1 or later IBM Corporation: AIX version 7, at 7.2 TL5 (or later) on systems using CHRP system architecture with POWER™ processors IBM Corporation: AIX version 7, at either 7.1 TL5 (or later) or 7.2 TL2 (or later) on systems using CHRP system architecture with POWER™ processors Hewlett Packard Enterprise: HP-UX 11i V3 Release B.11.31 or later on HP Integrity Servers IBM Corporation: AIX 6 Operating System V6.1.2 with SP1 or later on Systems using CHRP system architecture with POWER™ processors and 2, 8 or 128 port async cards IBM Corporation: AIX 5L for POWER V5.3 dated 7-2006 or later on Systems using CHRP system architecture with POWER™processors IBM Corporation: z/OS V2R1 or later with: z/OS V2R1 or later Security Server and z/OS V2R1 or later C/C++ Compiler on IBM zSeries Processors that support z/OS Version 2 Release 1 or later The SCO Group, Inc.: UnixWare ® 7.1.3 and later for single and multiprocessor systems based on IA-32 and compatible processors and conforming to PC architecture The SCO Group, Inc.: SCO OpenServer Release 5 and OpenServer Release 6 on Single and Multi-processor Industry Standard Intel architecture platforms Source: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register
vorakl 3y ago
> the Zephyr RTOS which claimed to have some kind of posix compliance... The work is still in progress. It's also important to note, that Zephyr is intended to run on resource-constrained systems. There is not much logic in implementing fork() for example, since technically, there is only one process. So it implements a subset of the interface. Here is the link to the talk from the EOSS 2024 where Chris Friedt shares the current state of POSIX support in Zephyr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnmXxXuS6w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnmXxXuS6w
- znpy 3y ago
  Hey, I meant no dissing at Zephyr, i hope it was clear. What i wanted to get across is that claims about "Posix compliance" might have wide variance in meaningfulness unless backed by a certification.

by znpy 3y ago

jasomill 3y ago

Compliance with various POSIX standards remains useful and relevant, though the only list of actually certified products I can find[1] includes only RTOSes. Even without certification, POSIX remains a useful baseline for implementing and consuming cross-platform system services, taken with your suggested grains of salt on the consumer side for any details not specifically documented as POSIX-compliant. UNIX certification seems mostly only relevant in terms of OS marketing, in the sense that it signifies a vendor's intention to provide a usable POSIX-ish programming environment. As a target for cross-platform application developers, the list of certified UNIX platforms is at best weirdly specific: macOS: supported AIX: supported, though even IBM seems to prefer Linux for new development; IBM-supported Linux runs natively alongside AIX on the same hardware, further limiting appeal z/OS: supported, but only a "UNIX system" in that it offers a POSIX compatibility layer on top of a system that's fundamentally non-POSIX in design (EBCDIC, expensive process creation, etc.); IBM-supported Linux runs natively alongside z/OS on the same hardware, further limiting appeal HP-UX: supported until 2025-12-31; Itanium-only SCO UnixWare and OpenServer: supported (?), but no substantial updates since 2018 (?) [1] https://posix.opengroup.org/register.html https://posix.opengroup.org/register.html

iforgotmysocks 3y ago

> From what i've seen Apple gets every Mac Os release UNIX-certified, which is somewhat cool. I reckon it is because of the lawsuit they got because they used unix in marketing without actually paying for the certificate. see - https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix-compliant-certified https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix...

sillywalk 3y ago

Certified Unix. The source link has more details: Apple Inc.: macOS version 14.0 Sonoma on Apple silicon-based Mac computers Apple Inc.: macOS version 14.0 Sonoma on Intel-based Mac computers IBM Corporation: z/OS 3.1 or later with: z/OS 3.1 or later Security Server and z/OS 3.1 or later C/C++ Compiler on IBM Series Processors that support z/OS Version 3.1 or later IBM Corporation: AIX version 7, at 7.2 TL5 (or later) on systems using CHRP system architecture with POWER™ processors IBM Corporation: AIX version 7, at either 7.1 TL5 (or later) or 7.2 TL2 (or later) on systems using CHRP system architecture with POWER™ processors Hewlett Packard Enterprise: HP-UX 11i V3 Release B.11.31 or later on HP Integrity Servers IBM Corporation: AIX 6 Operating System V6.1.2 with SP1 or later on Systems using CHRP system architecture with POWER™ processors and 2, 8 or 128 port async cards IBM Corporation: AIX 5L for POWER V5.3 dated 7-2006 or later on Systems using CHRP system architecture with POWER™processors IBM Corporation: z/OS V2R1 or later with: z/OS V2R1 or later Security Server and z/OS V2R1 or later C/C++ Compiler on IBM zSeries Processors that support z/OS Version 2 Release 1 or later The SCO Group, Inc.: UnixWare ® 7.1.3 and later for single and multiprocessor systems based on IA-32 and compatible processors and conforming to PC architecture The SCO Group, Inc.: SCO OpenServer Release 5 and OpenServer Release 6 on Single and Multi-processor Industry Standard Intel architecture platforms Source: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register

vorakl 3y ago

> the Zephyr RTOS which claimed to have some kind of posix compliance... The work is still in progress. It's also important to note, that Zephyr is intended to run on resource-constrained systems. There is not much logic in implementing fork() for example, since technically, there is only one process. So it implements a subset of the interface. Here is the link to the talk from the EOSS 2024 where Chris Friedt shares the current state of POSIX support in Zephyr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnmXxXuS6w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnmXxXuS6w

znpy 3y ago
Hey, I meant no dissing at Zephyr, i hope it was clear. What i wanted to get across is that claims about "Posix compliance" might have wide variance in meaningfulness unless backed by a certification.