4 ms·

What is the product? Is it the hardware? Or the software? Are you saying they are one product, not two? We've been through this countless times. Microsoft

What is the product? Is it the hardware? Or the software? Are you saying they are one product, not two? We've been through this countless times. Microsoft and the OEM's. Apple and their locked down hardware. Consumers are not fools. They know the difference between a software company and a hardware company. Does your packaged food come with silverware? Do your finished songs come with an mp3 player? Does your premade clothing come with laundry detergent? I find these type of comparsions (e.g. of computers and software to food, music, clothing) very strange. We are talking about cheap, programmable consumer electronics. And then we are having an argument over whether the consumer should have the ability to program them. It is absurd.

dpark 14y ago
Should Honda be obliged to support installing custom engine control software? Overwriting the radio firmware? Reprogramming the odometer? Should GE obligated to support installing new firmware on your dishwasher? There's a long history of integrated devices. It may be the case that consumers know the difference between hardware and software. It's also the case, though, that they often do not care, and don't want to see with the difference.
- a3d6g2f7 14y ago
  Thanks for your comment. First, I don't understand how "support" is relevant. I never mentioned it. What I'm suggesting involves no pledge from Apple to help me with any of my own software I install (BIOS, bootloader, OS, applications). And as far as I know, there is no "support" for Apple pre-installed software anyway. You cannot call customer service and get help with software installed on Apple hardware. And as is true with 99.99% of software, it comes with no warranty. So you really get nothing from Apple in the way of "support". As such, I would ask nothing more from Apple over what they don't provide anyway. Rather I'm asking for the the choice to buy the hardware without all the pre-installed software. Simple. Second, I do not understand your comparisons. Automobiles and dishwashers? Do consumers usually program those? Is there a github for that sort of thing? I'm talking about a personal computer. The kind consumers have been programming for over 30 years. iOS is built in significant part from open source code from CMU and Berkeley/FreeBSD/NetBSD that can be freely downloaded from the internet. That same code, and much more from numerous thriving open source respositories, is available to consumers, too. It is available to anyone, for any purpose. So why is Apple making it impossible for anyone to use their own software (or their own speakers) together with Apple's hardware? Is there a legitimate reason? No one is asking for "support". Instead they are asking for Apple to stop getting in their way and interfering with how they can use a product that belongs to them. When you buy a Honda automobile, Honda doesn't care what you do with it afterwards. They do not act to control which car stereo speakers you can and cannot install. You bought the car. What you do with it now is your business.
jodrellblank 14y ago
What is the product? Is it the hardware? Or the software? Are you saying they are one product, not two? Yes I'm saying they are one product not two. They are made as one product, advertised as one product, sold as one thing for one price, supported as one product. Where do you get the idea that they could reasonably be thought of as two products? We are talking about cheap, programmable consumer electronics. And then we are having an argument over whether the consumer should have the ability to program them. It is absurd. No we aren't. We are talking about dozens of components, both software and hardware, put together into one product which is not sold as "programmable electronics" anymore than a dishwasher is sold as "reconfigurable matter". It's a nonsense idea that you want to be the case but you haven't justified why it "should" be the case at all.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- a3d6g2f7 14y ago
  "reconfigurable matter"?

dpark 14y ago

Should Honda be obliged to support installing custom engine control software? Overwriting the radio firmware? Reprogramming the odometer? Should GE obligated to support installing new firmware on your dishwasher? There's a long history of integrated devices. It may be the case that consumers know the difference between hardware and software. It's also the case, though, that they often do not care, and don't want to see with the difference.

a3d6g2f7 14y ago
Thanks for your comment. First, I don't understand how "support" is relevant. I never mentioned it. What I'm suggesting involves no pledge from Apple to help me with any of my own software I install (BIOS, bootloader, OS, applications). And as far as I know, there is no "support" for Apple pre-installed software anyway. You cannot call customer service and get help with software installed on Apple hardware. And as is true with 99.99% of software, it comes with no warranty. So you really get nothing from Apple in the way of "support". As such, I would ask nothing more from Apple over what they don't provide anyway. Rather I'm asking for the the choice to buy the hardware without all the pre-installed software. Simple. Second, I do not understand your comparisons. Automobiles and dishwashers? Do consumers usually program those? Is there a github for that sort of thing? I'm talking about a personal computer. The kind consumers have been programming for over 30 years. iOS is built in significant part from open source code from CMU and Berkeley/FreeBSD/NetBSD that can be freely downloaded from the internet. That same code, and much more from numerous thriving open source respositories, is available to consumers, too. It is available to anyone, for any purpose. So why is Apple making it impossible for anyone to use their own software (or their own speakers) together with Apple's hardware? Is there a legitimate reason? No one is asking for "support". Instead they are asking for Apple to stop getting in their way and interfering with how they can use a product that belongs to them. When you buy a Honda automobile, Honda doesn't care what you do with it afterwards. They do not act to control which car stereo speakers you can and cannot install. You bought the car. What you do with it now is your business.

jodrellblank 14y ago

What is the product? Is it the hardware? Or the software? Are you saying they are one product, not two? Yes I'm saying they are one product not two. They are made as one product, advertised as one product, sold as one thing for one price, supported as one product. Where do you get the idea that they could reasonably be thought of as two products? We are talking about cheap, programmable consumer electronics. And then we are having an argument over whether the consumer should have the ability to program them. It is absurd. No we aren't. We are talking about dozens of components, both software and hardware, put together into one product which is not sold as "programmable electronics" anymore than a dishwasher is sold as "reconfigurable matter". It's a nonsense idea that you want to be the case but you haven't justified why it "should" be the case at all.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
a3d6g2f7 14y ago
"reconfigurable matter"?