6 ms·

Emulators are completely legal. Downloading ROMs of retail games might not be.

by Kwpolska 3y ago

frozenport 3y ago
Trademark issue, they are saying something is Nintendo, by way of their command name, when it isnt?
- prmoustache 3y ago
  The emulator is not named nintendo, this is the common manpage for the gb, gba, nes and snes commands. Having said that, some if not all of them are also trademarks but since the 9front system is not sold, I am not sure trademark protection really apply. I believe the point of trademark is to prevent a product to have a same name as a competing one which is not really the case here.
  - glimshe 3y ago
    It does. Nintendo is able to make free products too, and trademarks are certainly about provenance. Nintendo could claim that the use of their trademark could confuse users on the origin of this free product.
thih9 3y ago
And yet emulators get discontinued because of legal action: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuzu_(emulator) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuzu_(emulator) > On February 26, 2024, Nintendo of America filed a lawsuit against Tropic Haze LLC, the legal entity behind Yuzu's development. Development and official distribution of Yuzu ceased on March 4, 2024, after Tropic Haze settled the lawsuit with Nintendo of America for $2.4 million.
- EMIRELADERO 3y ago
  That was because the devs were idiots who kept a "stash" of pirated games on a shared server. They would have been cooked in discovery if the lawsuit progressed. A dev team that was actually clean and didn't pirate a single thing would have done much better.
  - Charon77 3y ago
    Could you elaborate? I think I totally miss this subtleties
    - darkwater 3y ago
      I think GP is implying that the main goal of the Yuzu emulator was explicitly pirating Nintendo games, unless other emulation projects where enabling piracy is just a side-effect, so to speak.
      - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
        No, that wasn't the main goal, but the developers had their own private NAS and discord server where they shared pirated switch ROMs. That would have killed them if (when) it came out in the lawsuit so they decided to end it right there. Notice how the other emulator, Ryujinx, isn't being targeted. There is no talk of a dev "stash" on its discord server.
        philistine 3y ago
        The main thing people are forgetting is how Yuzu presented itself. They made a big thing out of support for 4k60 Tears of the Kingdom on PC before the game was released. The marketing people inside Nintendo must have been completely furious to have their supremely controlled media cycle completely sidetracked by them. They clearly sicked the legal department on them after that. Any time an emulator developer, or a fan game artist gets a cease and desist from Nintendo, it's always because marketing gets wind of their existence.
        crtasm 3y ago
        >They made a big thing out of support for 4k60 Tears of the Kingdom on PC before the game was released. Citation please? Yuzu couldn't start the game at all without a patch, which I don't believe was being promoted by the Yuzu team. Of course the patch + game + yuzu got bundled together and offered as a download on many websites, perhaps this is what you're thinking of.
- benchloftbrunch 3y ago
  Nintendo's entire argument in that case revolved around the unauthorized use of their encryption keys to bypass their DRM. None of the consoles mentioned in this manpage use encryption this way (and aren't powerful enough to do so in software.) So they're fine. IANAL. Note that 10NES style lockout systems are NOT "technological protection measures" under the DMCA, because they don't restrict access to the copyrighted works themselves (the games), but instead restrict what games the console will play. The one Game Boy emu dev who canceled their project was being overly cautious
- SllX 3y ago
  If you’re not going to go into the specifics of why then this is FUD. I’m calling it out because this FUD has been widespread across multiple discussion communities including this one. Tropic Haze (Yuzu) didn’t settle because all they were doing is writing an emulator. As others have pointed out, Nintendo had very strong reason to believe the Yuzu devs were engaged in outright and flagrant piracy. Among the allegations in Nintendo’s filing was that the devs (who publicly bragged about launch day support for new releases) were contributing the compatibility patches for new games prior to release. Further, Tropic Haze didn’t lose the lawsuit in the sense that they went to court and had a judgement against them. They likely knew they were cooked and chose to settle. For more on the legality of emulation in the US, review Sony vs Connectix.
- anonbanker 3y ago
  Devteam was using the official Switch SDK to develop, like a bunch of absolute morons.
ekianjo 3y ago
Nintendo US says that no emulation is legal in any way. I am not a lawyer, just reporting their position.
- fortyseven 3y ago
  They hope you believe it, too.
- AshamedCaptain 3y ago
  Do they really say that? I've had encounters with Nintendo's "copyright czar" and their official position on emulation hasn't been that. Heck, Nintendo even licenses emulators for their SDKs, and sometimes for their games... and has at least hired one emulator developer.
  - philistine 3y ago
    > While we recognize the passion that players have for classic games, supporting emulation also supports the illegal piracy of our products. Nintendo has never, ever, called the rerelease of their older titles emulation. Nintendo makes a conscious distinction between what they do internally, and external emulation. They have somewhat softened the wording of their statements, but their actions have shown they consider emulation outside Nintendo as a scourge.
    - AshamedCaptain 3y ago
      Notice that the wording in fact clearly avoids saying that emulation is illegal, just that it encourages the illegal piracy of their products. Several developer kits have used the word emulation without much ado.
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    this is what they say on their website: > But can’t I make a backup copy if I own the video game? > You may be thinking of the backup/archival exception under the U.S. Copyright Act. There is some misinformation on the Internet regarding this backup/archival exception. This is a very narrow limitation that extends to computer software. Video games are comprised of numerous types of copyrighted works and should not be categorized as software only. Therefore, provisions that pertain to backup copies would not apply to copyrighted video game works and specifically ROM downloads, that are typically unauthorized and infringing.

Emulators are completely legal. Downloading ROMs of retail games might not be.

frozenport 3y ago

Trademark issue, they are saying something is Nintendo, by way of their command name, when it isnt?

prmoustache 3y ago
The emulator is not named nintendo, this is the common manpage for the gb, gba, nes and snes commands. Having said that, some if not all of them are also trademarks but since the 9front system is not sold, I am not sure trademark protection really apply. I believe the point of trademark is to prevent a product to have a same name as a competing one which is not really the case here.
- glimshe 3y ago
  It does. Nintendo is able to make free products too, and trademarks are certainly about provenance. Nintendo could claim that the use of their trademark could confuse users on the origin of this free product.

thih9 3y ago

And yet emulators get discontinued because of legal action: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuzu_(emulator) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuzu_(emulator) > On February 26, 2024, Nintendo of America filed a lawsuit against Tropic Haze LLC, the legal entity behind Yuzu's development. Development and official distribution of Yuzu ceased on March 4, 2024, after Tropic Haze settled the lawsuit with Nintendo of America for $2.4 million.

EMIRELADERO 3y ago
That was because the devs were idiots who kept a "stash" of pirated games on a shared server. They would have been cooked in discovery if the lawsuit progressed. A dev team that was actually clean and didn't pirate a single thing would have done much better.
- Charon77 3y ago
  Could you elaborate? I think I totally miss this subtleties
  - darkwater 3y ago
    I think GP is implying that the main goal of the Yuzu emulator was explicitly pirating Nintendo games, unless other emulation projects where enabling piracy is just a side-effect, so to speak.
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      No, that wasn't the main goal, but the developers had their own private NAS and discord server where they shared pirated switch ROMs. That would have killed them if (when) it came out in the lawsuit so they decided to end it right there. Notice how the other emulator, Ryujinx, isn't being targeted. There is no talk of a dev "stash" on its discord server.
      - philistine 3y ago
        The main thing people are forgetting is how Yuzu presented itself. They made a big thing out of support for 4k60 Tears of the Kingdom on PC before the game was released. The marketing people inside Nintendo must have been completely furious to have their supremely controlled media cycle completely sidetracked by them. They clearly sicked the legal department on them after that. Any time an emulator developer, or a fan game artist gets a cease and desist from Nintendo, it's always because marketing gets wind of their existence.
        crtasm 3y ago
        >They made a big thing out of support for 4k60 Tears of the Kingdom on PC before the game was released. Citation please? Yuzu couldn't start the game at all without a patch, which I don't believe was being promoted by the Yuzu team. Of course the patch + game + yuzu got bundled together and offered as a download on many websites, perhaps this is what you're thinking of.
benchloftbrunch 3y ago
Nintendo's entire argument in that case revolved around the unauthorized use of their encryption keys to bypass their DRM. None of the consoles mentioned in this manpage use encryption this way (and aren't powerful enough to do so in software.) So they're fine. IANAL. Note that 10NES style lockout systems are NOT "technological protection measures" under the DMCA, because they don't restrict access to the copyrighted works themselves (the games), but instead restrict what games the console will play. The one Game Boy emu dev who canceled their project was being overly cautious
SllX 3y ago
If you’re not going to go into the specifics of why then this is FUD. I’m calling it out because this FUD has been widespread across multiple discussion communities including this one. Tropic Haze (Yuzu) didn’t settle because all they were doing is writing an emulator. As others have pointed out, Nintendo had very strong reason to believe the Yuzu devs were engaged in outright and flagrant piracy. Among the allegations in Nintendo’s filing was that the devs (who publicly bragged about launch day support for new releases) were contributing the compatibility patches for new games prior to release. Further, Tropic Haze didn’t lose the lawsuit in the sense that they went to court and had a judgement against them. They likely knew they were cooked and chose to settle. For more on the legality of emulation in the US, review Sony vs Connectix.
anonbanker 3y ago
Devteam was using the official Switch SDK to develop, like a bunch of absolute morons.

ekianjo 3y ago

Nintendo US says that no emulation is legal in any way. I am not a lawyer, just reporting their position.

fortyseven 3y ago
They hope you believe it, too.
AshamedCaptain 3y ago
Do they really say that? I've had encounters with Nintendo's "copyright czar" and their official position on emulation hasn't been that. Heck, Nintendo even licenses emulators for their SDKs, and sometimes for their games... and has at least hired one emulator developer.
- philistine 3y ago
  > While we recognize the passion that players have for classic games, supporting emulation also supports the illegal piracy of our products. Nintendo has never, ever, called the rerelease of their older titles emulation. Nintendo makes a conscious distinction between what they do internally, and external emulation. They have somewhat softened the wording of their statements, but their actions have shown they consider emulation outside Nintendo as a scourge.
  - AshamedCaptain 3y ago
    Notice that the wording in fact clearly avoids saying that emulation is illegal, just that it encourages the illegal piracy of their products. Several developer kits have used the word emulation without much ado.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  this is what they say on their website: > But can’t I make a backup copy if I own the video game? > You may be thinking of the backup/archival exception under the U.S. Copyright Act. There is some misinformation on the Internet regarding this backup/archival exception. This is a very narrow limitation that extends to computer software. Video games are comprised of numerous types of copyrighted works and should not be categorized as software only. Therefore, provisions that pertain to backup copies would not apply to copyrighted video game works and specifically ROM downloads, that are typically unauthorized and infringing.