5 ms·

Google lays off staff from Flutter, Dart, Python teams before dev conference

60 points by CharlesW 3y ago

coldtea 3y ago
Of course they do. Never depend on anything commercial by Google except Ads. Even G-suite is pushing your lack. >“We’re sad, but still cranking hard on I/O and beyond,” wrote Google PM Kevin Moore in the Flutter development community on Reddit, where he added that Flutter and Dart weren’t affected any more or less than other teams. “We know ya’ll care SO MUCH about the project and the team and the awesome ecosystem we’ve built together. You’re nervous. I get it. We get it. You’re betting on Flutter and Dart. So am I. So is Google,” he said. Pro tip: if a company has to make a statement that they still care for some technology or product of theirs, they' dont.
- pylua 3y ago
  To be fair, they are not necessarily reducing headcount, they are just going to move the jobs to other places like Munich, Bangalore, Mexico? Of course, if they are willing to treat their employees like this, they are likely to treat their users worse.
  - nickff 3y ago
    Are they treating their employees poorly? According to one quote, "... it’s the best job I’ve ever had, and I’ll miss it deeply". That sounds pretty good; do you think Google should have to retain every employee they've ever hired, at sky-high wages?
    - pylua 3y ago
      I think laying off employees without offering to move them to where they are shipping the jobs to is an example of poor treatment. While the employees acted with the utmost professionalism in their social media posts, you can tell that they are hurt. I get it, it is just business, but the reality is that the world of business is built upon goodwill.
      - yunohn 3y ago
        > laying off employees without offering to move them to where they are shipping the jobs to is an example of poor treatment I don’t think that offer would’ve made much sense, when the goal is to build a full low cost team elsewhere. Why would the high cost employee agree to such a transfer? Who would it benefit?
        pylua 3y ago
        For one, a high cost employees savings could go a very long way in a low cost of living country. Obviously, google sees something there — why wouldn’t the employee? If you have built your life around your trade, and the center of the trade moves, maybe you should consider moving. That may be easier than finding a new trade.
        PebblesHD 3y ago
        Still doesn’t really answer the question as to why an employee in a high HDI country would move to a lower one for reduced pay when they could remain in their existing one and get a different job? Not sure any amount of money could convince me to move to a place with potentially unreliable plumbing and sewage and away from my support networks where I am now, and that’s coming from someone who spends their time between two diametrically opposed cultures already. The value Google sees in these places is lower cost labor. This is not valuable to the current employees and is not a reason to move there.
        pylua 3y ago
        Bangalore is a very nice place. I have not had an issue with those things there, granted the level of inequality is very high. I also assume Munich does not have those problems either. Moving away from support networks is one major challenge, however, there is a strong expat community there, not to mention people may have relatives in those places. To the original point, if google just sees people as fungible cost centers,they will eventually dump their users, too. It will eventually be a Boeing, where employee / employee good will has been eroded, and no one takes pride in their work .
    - lancesells 3y ago
      Those employees helped make Google a $2T company. They just had a quarterly income of $24B. Firing people because of wages is wrong in this instance.
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        Flutter employees unlikely helped to make Google $2T company, since they do not participate directly or indirectly in main ecosystem/revenue streams.
        pylua 3y ago
        Everyone at the company contributes. Some people are in roles where the kpis may be harder to measure or that just have more risk in general. However, it is that risk taking that helps the company grow.
        riku_iki 3y ago
        I disagree with you. Some contribute, some make damage (for example bad engineers, managers, dysfunctional teams, dead products). Company is successful if impact from former is larger than from latter.
        pylua 3y ago
        I agree with that point, some parts of a company can detract value or contribute negatively. For the teams affected recently, however, i think that would be hard to argue.
      - nickff 3y ago
        These people got paid for their work, and in many if not most cases were able to benefit from their part in Google’s growth over their tenure via stock options. Why is it wrong to part ways after the relationship stops being mutually beneficial?
        3y ago
    - coldtea 3y ago
      >do you think Google should have to retain every employee they've ever hired No, just those working in product lines Google cares about. So if they didn't for these and just casually reduced those teams headcount or moved the jobs to cheaper places, they probably gave up on them. This is not a sign of Flutter, Dart, and so on getting bumped in commitment from Google, but the opposite.
      - nickff 3y ago
        Should there be reciprocity, where the employees are not allowed to leave while their project is still 'cared about', and they're still getting paid? I suspect your answer will be "no", and if so, I'd like to hear why the commitment only goes one way.
        pylua 3y ago
        No one is saying google is not allowed to do something or vice versa. Forcing long running members to leave a team (especially en masse )usually hurts the project long term, and the users that depend on their work should be nervous. It is also does not inspire confidence that google is invested in their workforce or users. I would argue a long running team member that leaves a company without gracefully handing off a task also did not follow a best practice. They are of course, free to leave in the United States.
    - pjmorris 3y ago
      "Sometimes financial decisions that are seemingly rational on their face can precipitate mass exodus of your best engineers." [0] [0] https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/ https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...
msie 3y ago
Shoulda put Dart into the Chrome browser. Flutter was plan B, no plan C for Dart.
- 1oooqooq 3y ago
  dart was their .net for fuchsia, which is not going to happen because they remembered all OS sucks because of NDA from manufacturers writing garbage drivers/firmware, which they cannot fix with a new OS.
999900000999 3y ago
Flutter was my goto mobile framework for a good while. It's like I can't win as a high level developer. Learn Unity, the company starts to implode. Now Google is going to deprioritize Flutter. Is anything safe? Do I have to start writing games and mobile apps in C++?
- lnrd 3y ago
  For mobile apps the safe bet is native development. Cross-platform frameworks come and go.
- pylua 3y ago
  No, but I am starting to wonder if software innovation is being moved outside the U.S.
  - arcbyte 3y ago
    There's innovation happening outside the US for sure, but the US is and will continue to be the capitol. We're just witnessing the exact same economic short sightedness that caused overhiring followed by layoffs in 2022, 2023; now repeating as undersizing. Now is a fantastic opportunity for startups.
    - pylua 3y ago
      The python team is moving abroad, not undersizing. At least, that was my reading of it. I would argue this is different than over hiring. Over time, in cheaper areas, the hiring may even expand.
      - arcbyte 3y ago
        Let me retract the word undersizing a little bit. A lukewarm step before undersizing is lowering cost by lowering quality. That's what we're witnessing.
        pylua 3y ago
Octokiddie 3y ago
Google is an advertising company. Relying on them to do anything other than service that business seems risky at best given the abundant history of rug-pulling. Even then, at this point I'd be questioning the support for ads. Support can mean anything from customer support to not running the business into the ground with blunders.
- esics6A 3y ago
  Google is the new Yahoo and sliding into irrelevance. Layoffs like this cut the core engineering functions of a company. After a while it becomes harder and harder to innovate and create meaningful products. Offshore teams can never replicate or replace these functions. This is crazy and the executives are clueless. Bring back Larry and Sergey now before it’s too late!
shufflerofrocks 3y ago
I've enjoyed using flutter and deployed 4 apps using it in the last 2 years. Goddammit.
joshspankit 3y ago
Is this the death of FlutterFlow?
sldevca 3y ago
Good thing my Udemy flutter course only cost $9.99.
peterlois 3y ago
Why are such core teams being let go?

60 points by CharlesW 3y ago

Of course they do. Never depend on anything commercial by Google except Ads. Even G-suite is pushing your lack. >“We’re sad, but still cranking hard on I/O and beyond,” wrote Google PM Kevin Moore in the Flutter development community on Reddit, where he added that Flutter and Dart weren’t affected any more or less than other teams. “We know ya’ll care SO MUCH about the project and the team and the awesome ecosystem we’ve built together. You’re nervous. I get it. We get it. You’re betting on Flutter and Dart. So am I. So is Google,” he said. Pro tip: if a company has to make a statement that they still care for some technology or product of theirs, they' dont.

pylua 3y ago
To be fair, they are not necessarily reducing headcount, they are just going to move the jobs to other places like Munich, Bangalore, Mexico? Of course, if they are willing to treat their employees like this, they are likely to treat their users worse.
- nickff 3y ago
  Are they treating their employees poorly? According to one quote, "... it’s the best job I’ve ever had, and I’ll miss it deeply". That sounds pretty good; do you think Google should have to retain every employee they've ever hired, at sky-high wages?
  - pylua 3y ago
    I think laying off employees without offering to move them to where they are shipping the jobs to is an example of poor treatment. While the employees acted with the utmost professionalism in their social media posts, you can tell that they are hurt. I get it, it is just business, but the reality is that the world of business is built upon goodwill.
    - yunohn 3y ago
      > laying off employees without offering to move them to where they are shipping the jobs to is an example of poor treatment I don’t think that offer would’ve made much sense, when the goal is to build a full low cost team elsewhere. Why would the high cost employee agree to such a transfer? Who would it benefit?
      - pylua 3y ago
        For one, a high cost employees savings could go a very long way in a low cost of living country. Obviously, google sees something there — why wouldn’t the employee? If you have built your life around your trade, and the center of the trade moves, maybe you should consider moving. That may be easier than finding a new trade.
        PebblesHD 3y ago
        Still doesn’t really answer the question as to why an employee in a high HDI country would move to a lower one for reduced pay when they could remain in their existing one and get a different job? Not sure any amount of money could convince me to move to a place with potentially unreliable plumbing and sewage and away from my support networks where I am now, and that’s coming from someone who spends their time between two diametrically opposed cultures already. The value Google sees in these places is lower cost labor. This is not valuable to the current employees and is not a reason to move there.
        pylua 3y ago
        Bangalore is a very nice place. I have not had an issue with those things there, granted the level of inequality is very high. I also assume Munich does not have those problems either. Moving away from support networks is one major challenge, however, there is a strong expat community there, not to mention people may have relatives in those places. To the original point, if google just sees people as fungible cost centers,they will eventually dump their users, too. It will eventually be a Boeing, where employee / employee good will has been eroded, and no one takes pride in their work .
  - lancesells 3y ago
    Those employees helped make Google a $2T company. They just had a quarterly income of $24B. Firing people because of wages is wrong in this instance.
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      Flutter employees unlikely helped to make Google $2T company, since they do not participate directly or indirectly in main ecosystem/revenue streams.
      - pylua 3y ago
        Everyone at the company contributes. Some people are in roles where the kpis may be harder to measure or that just have more risk in general. However, it is that risk taking that helps the company grow.
        riku_iki 3y ago
        I disagree with you. Some contribute, some make damage (for example bad engineers, managers, dysfunctional teams, dead products). Company is successful if impact from former is larger than from latter.
        pylua 3y ago
        I agree with that point, some parts of a company can detract value or contribute negatively. For the teams affected recently, however, i think that would be hard to argue.
    - nickff 3y ago
      These people got paid for their work, and in many if not most cases were able to benefit from their part in Google’s growth over their tenure via stock options. Why is it wrong to part ways after the relationship stops being mutually beneficial?
      - 3y ago
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >do you think Google should have to retain every employee they've ever hired No, just those working in product lines Google cares about. So if they didn't for these and just casually reduced those teams headcount or moved the jobs to cheaper places, they probably gave up on them. This is not a sign of Flutter, Dart, and so on getting bumped in commitment from Google, but the opposite.
    - nickff 3y ago
      Should there be reciprocity, where the employees are not allowed to leave while their project is still 'cared about', and they're still getting paid? I suspect your answer will be "no", and if so, I'd like to hear why the commitment only goes one way.
      - pylua 3y ago
        No one is saying google is not allowed to do something or vice versa. Forcing long running members to leave a team (especially en masse )usually hurts the project long term, and the users that depend on their work should be nervous. It is also does not inspire confidence that google is invested in their workforce or users. I would argue a long running team member that leaves a company without gracefully handing off a task also did not follow a best practice. They are of course, free to leave in the United States.
  - pjmorris 3y ago
    "Sometimes financial decisions that are seemingly rational on their face can precipitate mass exodus of your best engineers." [0] [0] https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/ https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...

msie 3y ago

Shoulda put Dart into the Chrome browser. Flutter was plan B, no plan C for Dart.

1oooqooq 3y ago
dart was their .net for fuchsia, which is not going to happen because they remembered all OS sucks because of NDA from manufacturers writing garbage drivers/firmware, which they cannot fix with a new OS.

999900000999 3y ago

Flutter was my goto mobile framework for a good while. It's like I can't win as a high level developer. Learn Unity, the company starts to implode. Now Google is going to deprioritize Flutter. Is anything safe? Do I have to start writing games and mobile apps in C++?

lnrd 3y ago
For mobile apps the safe bet is native development. Cross-platform frameworks come and go.
pylua 3y ago
No, but I am starting to wonder if software innovation is being moved outside the U.S.
- arcbyte 3y ago
  There's innovation happening outside the US for sure, but the US is and will continue to be the capitol. We're just witnessing the exact same economic short sightedness that caused overhiring followed by layoffs in 2022, 2023; now repeating as undersizing. Now is a fantastic opportunity for startups.
  - pylua 3y ago
    The python team is moving abroad, not undersizing. At least, that was my reading of it. I would argue this is different than over hiring. Over time, in cheaper areas, the hiring may even expand.
    - arcbyte 3y ago
      Let me retract the word undersizing a little bit. A lukewarm step before undersizing is lowering cost by lowering quality. That's what we're witnessing.
      - pylua 3y ago

Octokiddie 3y ago

Google is an advertising company. Relying on them to do anything other than service that business seems risky at best given the abundant history of rug-pulling. Even then, at this point I'd be questioning the support for ads. Support can mean anything from customer support to not running the business into the ground with blunders.

esics6A 3y ago
Google is the new Yahoo and sliding into irrelevance. Layoffs like this cut the core engineering functions of a company. After a while it becomes harder and harder to innovate and create meaningful products. Offshore teams can never replicate or replace these functions. This is crazy and the executives are clueless. Bring back Larry and Sergey now before it’s too late!

shufflerofrocks 3y ago

I've enjoyed using flutter and deployed 4 apps using it in the last 2 years. Goddammit.

joshspankit 3y ago

Is this the death of FlutterFlow?

sldevca 3y ago

Good thing my Udemy flutter course only cost $9.99.

peterlois 3y ago

Why are such core teams being let go?