7 ms·

The downside is that Russia as a state has few friends. Had you decided not to go the imperial route, we could have normal, civilized relations like with the re

The downside is that Russia as a state has few friends. Had you decided not to go the imperial route, we could have normal, civilized relations like with the rest of the world. At some point we could even have something like EU-Russia union (why not?) with people traveling, living and working where they choose.

thriftwy 2y ago
As it is known, Russia has only two friends: its army and its navy. And if you ask me, even the latter is in doubt. Prior to 2014 I don't remember any serious prospects of EU-Russia integration. EU did not even bother to have visa waiver for Russian citizens. Russians also didn't have any special education opportunities coming from EU. Basically Russians could only visit EU on short term visas as tourists to spend their money there. And a tourist can always switch to a different destination. You don't need visa or border checks to visit Crimea anymore, though. Pandemics do not shut off its borders.
- benterix 2y ago
  > As it is known, Russia has only two friends: its army and its navy. This sounds a bit sad, doesn't it? Do you really believe it? Because this way of saying is typical of autocrats looking for an external enemy in order to cement their own power. The reality is that Europe had enough of wars and we made an effort to integrate and collaborate peacefully. It's not always easy but it's working better than ever. And we did collaborate with Russia as much as we could - but there was no political will on the other side to extend it. Personally I have many Russian friends, they are normal people and want to live happily. There is no reason why one country should invade another because the result is always suffering.
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    Yes Europe made efforts to integrate and collaborate peacefully between yourselves, but these plans didn't include Russia. There was literally no place for Russia in your layout other than "you stay here with your mouth shut, buy our trinkets and provide us with cheap oil and gas while we digest all of your neighbours". There was a meaningful framework of participation for Poland, for Bosnia, even for Turkey, but none for Russia. So in 2014, Europe and the US didn't have any levers that it could pull. You couldn't meaningfully distance from Russia because we were never any close.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
      Yes, because the EU has certain requirements. You should not kill your own journalists and so on. I believe in the early 2000s some people had some optimism about a common future but since Putin took over it looked more and more grim. I believe the tipping point was the war in Georgia where the EU more or less understood that as long as he is alive, it would be difficult to have a civilized relationship. But this is at the level of politics and personal ambition of the former KGB agent. At the level of individuals, the above is total bullshit. Most Russians I meet are really, really nice people. And I'm not even talking about engineers but common people. The only thing I didn't like is the culture of drinking and being a little too pushy in this regard.
      - thriftwy 2y ago
        The problem is that EU needed to find a way to integrate existing Russian Federation as a neigbour, and not some "true Scotsman" Russia that only lives in your imagination. EU didn't want to integrate with existing RF for a long list of reasons. "As much as we could" turned out tiny. And there was no political will on the EU side to expand it despite whatever Putin was doing prior 2014 or even 2011. So in the absense of these integrations designed to prevent wars and strife, we've got strife and wars, like how you get fender benders when driving on icy roads with summer tyres. The friction was insufficient and the thing lost control. I can see the prevailing attitude that integration with Russia was a "nice to have" thing which could be forfeited at any moment when Russia was deemed unworthy. But winter tyres are the must as temperatures drop below zero.
        benterix 2y ago
        Oh man I love the logic... The EU didn't want to change its standards related to not killing one's own journalists and so on so Putin had no choice but to start a war. I see this rhetoric very often. "He had to", "obviously he had no other choice". These are all false premises. He could not kill his own journalists but he chose to, for his own advantage. He could choose cooperation instead of war, but he wanted to be remembered in history books as the guy who brought not only Belarus but also Ukraine to his empire. Well, he will be remembered, but not exactly the way he hoped to.

thriftwy 2y ago

As it is known, Russia has only two friends: its army and its navy. And if you ask me, even the latter is in doubt. Prior to 2014 I don't remember any serious prospects of EU-Russia integration. EU did not even bother to have visa waiver for Russian citizens. Russians also didn't have any special education opportunities coming from EU. Basically Russians could only visit EU on short term visas as tourists to spend their money there. And a tourist can always switch to a different destination. You don't need visa or border checks to visit Crimea anymore, though. Pandemics do not shut off its borders.

benterix 2y ago
> As it is known, Russia has only two friends: its army and its navy. This sounds a bit sad, doesn't it? Do you really believe it? Because this way of saying is typical of autocrats looking for an external enemy in order to cement their own power. The reality is that Europe had enough of wars and we made an effort to integrate and collaborate peacefully. It's not always easy but it's working better than ever. And we did collaborate with Russia as much as we could - but there was no political will on the other side to extend it. Personally I have many Russian friends, they are normal people and want to live happily. There is no reason why one country should invade another because the result is always suffering.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  Yes Europe made efforts to integrate and collaborate peacefully between yourselves, but these plans didn't include Russia. There was literally no place for Russia in your layout other than "you stay here with your mouth shut, buy our trinkets and provide us with cheap oil and gas while we digest all of your neighbours". There was a meaningful framework of participation for Poland, for Bosnia, even for Turkey, but none for Russia. So in 2014, Europe and the US didn't have any levers that it could pull. You couldn't meaningfully distance from Russia because we were never any close.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
    Yes, because the EU has certain requirements. You should not kill your own journalists and so on. I believe in the early 2000s some people had some optimism about a common future but since Putin took over it looked more and more grim. I believe the tipping point was the war in Georgia where the EU more or less understood that as long as he is alive, it would be difficult to have a civilized relationship. But this is at the level of politics and personal ambition of the former KGB agent. At the level of individuals, the above is total bullshit. Most Russians I meet are really, really nice people. And I'm not even talking about engineers but common people. The only thing I didn't like is the culture of drinking and being a little too pushy in this regard.
    - thriftwy 2y ago
      The problem is that EU needed to find a way to integrate existing Russian Federation as a neigbour, and not some "true Scotsman" Russia that only lives in your imagination. EU didn't want to integrate with existing RF for a long list of reasons. "As much as we could" turned out tiny. And there was no political will on the EU side to expand it despite whatever Putin was doing prior 2014 or even 2011. So in the absense of these integrations designed to prevent wars and strife, we've got strife and wars, like how you get fender benders when driving on icy roads with summer tyres. The friction was insufficient and the thing lost control. I can see the prevailing attitude that integration with Russia was a "nice to have" thing which could be forfeited at any moment when Russia was deemed unworthy. But winter tyres are the must as temperatures drop below zero.
      - benterix 2y ago
        Oh man I love the logic... The EU didn't want to change its standards related to not killing one's own journalists and so on so Putin had no choice but to start a war. I see this rhetoric very often. "He had to", "obviously he had no other choice". These are all false premises. He could not kill his own journalists but he chose to, for his own advantage. He could choose cooperation instead of war, but he wanted to be remembered in history books as the guy who brought not only Belarus but also Ukraine to his empire. Well, he will be remembered, but not exactly the way he hoped to.