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Here's an article about Bibi's campaign targeting Muslim voters: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/election2022/article/bj1108idbi https://www.ynet.co.il/news/electio

Here's an article about Bibi's campaign targeting Muslim voters: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/election2022/article/bj1108idbi https://www.ynet.co.il/news/election2022/article/bj1108idbi This article shows the number of votes in Nazareth to the Likud: https://www.zman.co.il/352027/popup/ https://www.zman.co.il/352027/popup/ In 2021 they got 4%. Notice that this is despite Bibi using slogans like "Bibi is good for the Jews" or using rhetoric to his base of "Arabs are rushing to vote". So it's amazing he got this much. Here you can see wider official distribution from a government source: https://www.idi.org.il/articles/46754 https://www.idi.org.il/articles/46754 You will see that the center right party got most of the votes. All of them are Zionist parties. Also notice that all Arab parties (which get most of the votes) are pro-Israel. They believe in a two state solution but aren't anti-Zionist. The previous government also included an Arab party as part of the coalition government which was pretty fantastic. Unfortunately, the coalition collapsed due to dirty politics as it was hanging by a thread. The Arab population in Jaffa is roughly 33%. A lot of that is due to the growth of the city. > With all that said, it is a known tactic of colonizers to assimilate the colonized population. The I very much doubt that many of the Arab Muslim or Arab Christian population in Israel still identifies as Palestinian. Decades of assimilation does that. Many don't identify as Palestinian I don't know how many though. Notice that Israel has many Muslim minorities that are decidedly not Palestinian e.g. the Druze and Bedouin populations both of which typically serve in the army as well (quite a few were murdered and even kidnapped in Oct 7th). I very much like Yosef Hadad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoseph_Haddad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoseph_Haddad He's an Arab Israeli who served in the Israeli Army. He tries to bring Jews and Arabs together as a shared destiny which is fantastic. He came to speak at Colombia but was physically attacked.

runarberg 2y ago
> The Arab population in Jaffa is roughly 33%. A lot of that is due to the growth of the city. I’m a bit confused here. I was under the impression that Jaffa was annexed into Tel Aviv in 1949. Jaffa today is only a neighborhood, a district, or a part of a larger city. According Wikipedia[1] the Arab population of that portion of Tel Aviv called Jaffa is 33%, which is still only 16000 people. Before the Nakba the population was around 95 000 (of which 15 000 Jews). Only 3800 Arabs remained during the Nakba. So in historic terms, Jaffa hasn’t recovered to previous population numbers. Aside, the annexations of Jaffa into Tel Aviv, is colonialism 101. The eradication of the place names and administration boundaries is straight from the playbook of the colonization of Ireland by the British. When you say stuff like: “The vast majority of the Palestinians who still live there and are Israeli citizens sure as hell don't want to be ruled by the Palestinian authority.” I thing is very disingenuous given the history of the place. The thing is, they don’t still live there, they were overwhelmingly displaced, and those that remained were assimilated into the culture of the colonizer. To the extent they mostly identify as Arab Israelis (not Palestinian as you call them; it is of course up to them if they want to identify as Palestinians though, and I bet some do). By the same logic you could claim that Dublin has no claims on Belfast because Belfast has some Catholics that vote for the DUP. Aside 2, the way the British finally achieved peace in Northern Ireland was by actually recognizing the fact that Dublin does have claims to Belfast and it is up to the citizens of Belfast to decide if they ever want to reunite with the Republic of Ireland. Just compare that to how Israel is responding to a crisis of similar nature. Thanks for the numbers btw. I appreciate it. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa#Demography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa#Demography EDIT: If we crunch the numbers of the 2022 elections (very interesting link btw.) we get 14% of all Arab voters that voted for Zionist parties. Only 53% of Arabs voted in that election, and that number includes Druze and Bedouin. This comes down to a grand total of 36230 votes, 13000 of those are for Yesh Atid and Labour which are a liberal/reformist versions of Zionism (kind of like the Alliance party in Northern Ireland). I also wonder about the methodology here as the tally is broken down by Arab neighborhoods, so if a Jew is living in an Arab neighborhood, they are counted, and if an Arab is living in a majority Jewish neighborhood, they are not (I also wonder how East Jerusalem is counted here here). I wanted to see how this compares to Unionist support among Northern Irish Catholics, but I was just as bad as finding numbers of that as in Israel (turns out speaking the language is not enough). The best numbers I found was from a 2014[2] poll which got hardline Unionist parties 1% of Catholic votes, and nonsectarian got 6%. I don’t think this is enough to compare, given the different methodology, difference in participation, etc. But what I get from this is this is that it is not that easy to claim that “Palestinians” that still live in Jaffa vote Likud in shocking numbers. 2: https://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2014/Political_Attitudes/POLPART2.html https://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2014/Political_Attitudes/POLPART2...
- tptacek 2y ago
  Is 53% turnout a lot or a little in Israel? It's a lot in the US, obviously. What does it matter that the number includes Druze and Bedouin? Other than that both communities are harshly discriminated against in the surrounding countries without reaction or even notice from the commentariat? I understand arguments about colonization vis a vis Gaza and (especially) the West Bank, whose occupations represent the threat of an in-progress appropriation and "colonization", if we're going to use that word. I don't understand what discussion about the "colonization" of Jaffa gets you. Jaffa is to Tel Aviv what Saint Paul is Minneapolis. It's not going anywhere. What's to advocate for? You would literally be on firmer footing advocating for the return of San Antonio to Mexico.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    The report linked by my parent talks about 53% being a great turnout for Arab voters, as it was up from only 44.6% a year earlier. However this number has been going down all this century. If compared to Israel as a whole, it is very worrying to a point where I would call it a democratic flaw, as the general population has election participation around 70%. Talking about the colonization of Jaffa was in response to the peace deal, where DiogenesKynikos said: > This is a massive concession, because the Palestinians have given up their claim to places like Haifa and Jaffa, which used to be almost 100% Palestinian cities, and which they were unjustly driven out of. So far, no Israeli government has reciprocated and acknowledged a Palestinian "right to exist." Jaffa was colonized in 1948 by displacing almost all of their residents, most are still to this day refugees in Gaza or Lebanon, two-three generations later. Jaffa still exists as a placename, but the city does not, it has been completely annexed into Tel Aviv, which used to be a suburb of Jewish settlers (according to the Wikipedia article I just read). I don’t see a comparison with Saint Paul (which is still an independent city) or San Antonio. The concession of relinquishing claims to Jaffa is nothing short of the concessions which the Irish nationalists did when they relinquished claims to Belfast. In return Ireland actually got statehood and eventual independence. Years later Catholics living in Belfast got equal rights, political representation and a political avenue for decolonization. If the British would have behaved like Israel, they would have driven almost every Catholic out of what would become Northern Ireland before 1921 (they had already renamed all their placenames centuries prior) made sure those that remained had no affiliations with Catholics in the Free state, denied them the right to return, moved British Protestants into the vacant areas (they had also done that centuries prior), and never actually given the Irish free state political recognition. Even after the nationalists gave up any claims to Belfast.

runarberg 2y ago

> The Arab population in Jaffa is roughly 33%. A lot of that is due to the growth of the city. I’m a bit confused here. I was under the impression that Jaffa was annexed into Tel Aviv in 1949. Jaffa today is only a neighborhood, a district, or a part of a larger city. According Wikipedia[1] the Arab population of that portion of Tel Aviv called Jaffa is 33%, which is still only 16000 people. Before the Nakba the population was around 95 000 (of which 15 000 Jews). Only 3800 Arabs remained during the Nakba. So in historic terms, Jaffa hasn’t recovered to previous population numbers. Aside, the annexations of Jaffa into Tel Aviv, is colonialism 101. The eradication of the place names and administration boundaries is straight from the playbook of the colonization of Ireland by the British. When you say stuff like: “The vast majority of the Palestinians who still live there and are Israeli citizens sure as hell don't want to be ruled by the Palestinian authority.” I thing is very disingenuous given the history of the place. The thing is, they don’t still live there, they were overwhelmingly displaced, and those that remained were assimilated into the culture of the colonizer. To the extent they mostly identify as Arab Israelis (not Palestinian as you call them; it is of course up to them if they want to identify as Palestinians though, and I bet some do). By the same logic you could claim that Dublin has no claims on Belfast because Belfast has some Catholics that vote for the DUP. Aside 2, the way the British finally achieved peace in Northern Ireland was by actually recognizing the fact that Dublin does have claims to Belfast and it is up to the citizens of Belfast to decide if they ever want to reunite with the Republic of Ireland. Just compare that to how Israel is responding to a crisis of similar nature. Thanks for the numbers btw. I appreciate it. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa#Demography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa#Demography EDIT: If we crunch the numbers of the 2022 elections (very interesting link btw.) we get 14% of all Arab voters that voted for Zionist parties. Only 53% of Arabs voted in that election, and that number includes Druze and Bedouin. This comes down to a grand total of 36230 votes, 13000 of those are for Yesh Atid and Labour which are a liberal/reformist versions of Zionism (kind of like the Alliance party in Northern Ireland). I also wonder about the methodology here as the tally is broken down by Arab neighborhoods, so if a Jew is living in an Arab neighborhood, they are counted, and if an Arab is living in a majority Jewish neighborhood, they are not (I also wonder how East Jerusalem is counted here here). I wanted to see how this compares to Unionist support among Northern Irish Catholics, but I was just as bad as finding numbers of that as in Israel (turns out speaking the language is not enough). The best numbers I found was from a 2014[2] poll which got hardline Unionist parties 1% of Catholic votes, and nonsectarian got 6%. I don’t think this is enough to compare, given the different methodology, difference in participation, etc. But what I get from this is this is that it is not that easy to claim that “Palestinians” that still live in Jaffa vote Likud in shocking numbers. 2: https://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2014/Political_Attitudes/POLPART2.html https://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2014/Political_Attitudes/POLPART2...

tptacek 2y ago
Is 53% turnout a lot or a little in Israel? It's a lot in the US, obviously. What does it matter that the number includes Druze and Bedouin? Other than that both communities are harshly discriminated against in the surrounding countries without reaction or even notice from the commentariat? I understand arguments about colonization vis a vis Gaza and (especially) the West Bank, whose occupations represent the threat of an in-progress appropriation and "colonization", if we're going to use that word. I don't understand what discussion about the "colonization" of Jaffa gets you. Jaffa is to Tel Aviv what Saint Paul is Minneapolis. It's not going anywhere. What's to advocate for? You would literally be on firmer footing advocating for the return of San Antonio to Mexico.
- runarberg 2y ago
  The report linked by my parent talks about 53% being a great turnout for Arab voters, as it was up from only 44.6% a year earlier. However this number has been going down all this century. If compared to Israel as a whole, it is very worrying to a point where I would call it a democratic flaw, as the general population has election participation around 70%. Talking about the colonization of Jaffa was in response to the peace deal, where DiogenesKynikos said: > This is a massive concession, because the Palestinians have given up their claim to places like Haifa and Jaffa, which used to be almost 100% Palestinian cities, and which they were unjustly driven out of. So far, no Israeli government has reciprocated and acknowledged a Palestinian "right to exist." Jaffa was colonized in 1948 by displacing almost all of their residents, most are still to this day refugees in Gaza or Lebanon, two-three generations later. Jaffa still exists as a placename, but the city does not, it has been completely annexed into Tel Aviv, which used to be a suburb of Jewish settlers (according to the Wikipedia article I just read). I don’t see a comparison with Saint Paul (which is still an independent city) or San Antonio. The concession of relinquishing claims to Jaffa is nothing short of the concessions which the Irish nationalists did when they relinquished claims to Belfast. In return Ireland actually got statehood and eventual independence. Years later Catholics living in Belfast got equal rights, political representation and a political avenue for decolonization. If the British would have behaved like Israel, they would have driven almost every Catholic out of what would become Northern Ireland before 1921 (they had already renamed all their placenames centuries prior) made sure those that remained had no affiliations with Catholics in the Free state, denied them the right to return, moved British Protestants into the vacant areas (they had also done that centuries prior), and never actually given the Irish free state political recognition. Even after the nationalists gave up any claims to Belfast.