4 ms·

You’re assuming that space was compressed into a single point at the Big Bang. However, this is not implied by the Big Bang or cosmology. All we can truly infer

by nilkn 2y ago

You’re assuming that space was compressed into a single point at the Big Bang. However, this is not implied by the Big Bang or cosmology. All we can truly infer is that the universe was very hot and dense and that spacetime experienced rapid expansion. We do not know the size, extent, or shape of space at that time, and we don’t even know how much matter and energy were present. We only have a notion of the density.

causal 2y ago
Yeah this is a difficult concept, and I think the way the big bang is commonly portrayed in media often leads to this misconception of the big bang as starting at a point in space rather than a density. I uncovered this for myself when asking, "where is that point now?" and discovering it was never a point at all, space is expanding from all points simultaneously.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  The easy answer to the hard concept is that the big bang is not the increase in size of a thing. It is an increase in dimensions, including time. Our notions of size, of dimension, might not exist outside the bubble. We would therefore never perceive an edge, but that doesn't mean that one does not exist nor that there may be a finite size.
  - Baeocystin 2y ago
    I explain it to folks as if one was trying to go further south than the south pole. There's nothing physically impeding you; it's simply that once on the pole, all directions are north.
  - regularfry 2y ago
    Even that's not especially easy, because you then need to deal with "if the dimensions themselves are changing, why aren't protons the size of planets?"
sandworm101 2y ago
We may not know the exact size at the start, but we know it was infinitesimally smaller than it is today. So the size of the initial universe isn't a big factor in the equations about how big it likely is today. Weather it started as a few centimeters across or a few thousand light years across, both are functionally zero compared to the current size.
- nilkn 2y ago
  We don’t know that, though. Consider an evolution of a flat coordinate plane given by (x,y) -> (e^t * x, e^t * y). This process can run forever and has the property that all points appear to move away from all other points through time, yet the size of the plane never changes. It’s better to think of the Big Bang as describing a point in time rather than a point in space.
  - mynameishere 2y ago
    Does anyone know why wolframalpha is plotting this with cute little arrows? https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=plot+%28x%2Cy%29+%3D+%28e%5Et+*+x%2C+e%5Et+*+y%29++where+t%3D+1 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=plot+%28x%2Cy%29+%3D+%2...
    - itishappy 2y ago
      It's a vector field! It has 2 dimensional inputs and 2 dimensional outputs, so it doesn't fit on your traditional graph. f(x,y) = (c * x, c * y) f(x,y) = c * (x,y) f(P) = c * P If you give some thought to what `c` is doing to each point of your plane (start with the origin!), I bet that graph might make a bit more sense. :)
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > Consider an evolution of a flat coordinate plane given by (x,y) -> (e^t * x, e^t * y). This process can run forever and has the property that all points appear to move away from all other points through time, yet the size of the plane never changes. What do you mean by that last claim? Any observable region is bigger at later times than it is at earlier times. The reason all points always appear to be moving away from all other points is that that is in fact happening. What's the significance of claiming that the size of the infinite plane never changes? It's just as true that if you start with the unit interval [0, 1] and let it evolve under the transformation f(x) = tx, the size of the interval will never change -- every interval calculated at any point in time will be in perfect 1:1 correspondence with the original (except at t=0). But this doesn't mean that the measured length of the interval at different times isn't changing; it is.

by nilkn 2y ago

causal 2y ago

Yeah this is a difficult concept, and I think the way the big bang is commonly portrayed in media often leads to this misconception of the big bang as starting at a point in space rather than a density. I uncovered this for myself when asking, "where is that point now?" and discovering it was never a point at all, space is expanding from all points simultaneously.

sandworm101 2y ago
The easy answer to the hard concept is that the big bang is not the increase in size of a thing. It is an increase in dimensions, including time. Our notions of size, of dimension, might not exist outside the bubble. We would therefore never perceive an edge, but that doesn't mean that one does not exist nor that there may be a finite size.
- Baeocystin 2y ago
  I explain it to folks as if one was trying to go further south than the south pole. There's nothing physically impeding you; it's simply that once on the pole, all directions are north.
- regularfry 2y ago
  Even that's not especially easy, because you then need to deal with "if the dimensions themselves are changing, why aren't protons the size of planets?"

sandworm101 2y ago

We may not know the exact size at the start, but we know it was infinitesimally smaller than it is today. So the size of the initial universe isn't a big factor in the equations about how big it likely is today. Weather it started as a few centimeters across or a few thousand light years across, both are functionally zero compared to the current size.

nilkn 2y ago
We don’t know that, though. Consider an evolution of a flat coordinate plane given by (x,y) -> (e^t * x, e^t * y). This process can run forever and has the property that all points appear to move away from all other points through time, yet the size of the plane never changes. It’s better to think of the Big Bang as describing a point in time rather than a point in space.
- mynameishere 2y ago
  Does anyone know why wolframalpha is plotting this with cute little arrows? https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=plot+%28x%2Cy%29+%3D+%28e%5Et+*+x%2C+e%5Et+*+y%29++where+t%3D+1 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=plot+%28x%2Cy%29+%3D+%2...
  - itishappy 2y ago
    It's a vector field! It has 2 dimensional inputs and 2 dimensional outputs, so it doesn't fit on your traditional graph. f(x,y) = (c * x, c * y) f(x,y) = c * (x,y) f(P) = c * P If you give some thought to what `c` is doing to each point of your plane (start with the origin!), I bet that graph might make a bit more sense. :)
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Consider an evolution of a flat coordinate plane given by (x,y) -> (e^t * x, e^t * y). This process can run forever and has the property that all points appear to move away from all other points through time, yet the size of the plane never changes. What do you mean by that last claim? Any observable region is bigger at later times than it is at earlier times. The reason all points always appear to be moving away from all other points is that that is in fact happening. What's the significance of claiming that the size of the infinite plane never changes? It's just as true that if you start with the unit interval [0, 1] and let it evolve under the transformation f(x) = tx, the size of the interval will never change -- every interval calculated at any point in time will be in perfect 1:1 correspondence with the original (except at t=0). But this doesn't mean that the measured length of the interval at different times isn't changing; it is.