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Interesting. I don't think the AI code generation will live up to developer expectations, but I do see the value in "project management for developers". The val

by sdesol 2y ago

Interesting. I don't think the AI code generation will live up to developer expectations, but I do see the value in "project management for developers". The value I see with workspace is not the code generation, but the ability to help developers organize their thoughts.

alfalfasprout 2y ago
The real problem is a large part of the enormous hype train is investors thinking they can replace talented engineers w/ AI. That's fundamentally doomed for failure. What AI can really do well is take an already competent engineer and suddenly get rid of a lot of the annoying tedium they had to deal with. Whether it's writing boilerplate, doing basic project management, organizing brain dumps/brainstorming, etc.
- nprateem 2y ago
  Yes. And they've also introduced a new kind of tedium in going round in circles while it doesn't understand you, then you give up and go back to SO.
- sdesol 2y ago
  I do think workspace by GitHub is a smart move. What is clear as day is, we don't have enough data to model how developers think and iterate to solve problems. With workspace, I see it as a way to capture structured data on how developers think. This is certainly a long game though. I think GitHub with MS money can continue to lose money on Copilot for the next 5 years to gather data. For other VC ventures, I don't think they can wait that long.
- godzillabrennus 2y ago
  These AI coding assistants already do what you are describing. At some point in the future, AI should be capable enough to do the job of a competent developer. This is not a short-term milestone, IMHO.
- idan 2y ago
  Bingo.
- bossyTeacher 2y ago
  Pretty much this. I worry that we might face an AI winter soon as investors in 2029 suddenly realise that LLMs are not going to replace anyone anytime soon and that they won't be able to obtain the fantasied cash out of replacing millions of workers with LLMs. Looking at the sad fate of Deep Mind (R.I.P), I feel that the shortermism generated by LLMs is going to be really painful
- dgb23 2y ago
  It’s pretty good at completing relatively simple code. If you already know what exactly you write and have a consistent and simple coding style it will typically recognize what you are doing and complete whole blocks. It takes an experienced eye to fix the code after, but overall it makes you a bit faster at those kinds of tasks. But if you’re in thinking and exploration mode then turn it off. It’s a massive distraction then.
lostintangent 2y ago
One of our main goals with Copilot Workspace is to help offer a "thought partner"/rubber duck for developers, and potentially even other members of a software team (as you said, PMs, designers, etc.). And code generation is obviously just one means of helping you think through a problem, along with a fleshed out spec (what are you trying to accomplish?), and plan for how to approach the problem (how might you actually accomplish it?). And so while we want to help generate code for tasks (e.g. from issue->PR), we also find that it's just super helpful to take an idea and make it more tangible/concrete. And then use that Workspace session to drive a conversation amongst the team, or spark the implementation. Especially since that might only take a couple clicks. Within the GitHub Next team, I'll often file issues on one of the team's project repos, and then pause for a moment, before realizing I'm actually curious how it might be accomplished. So I'll open it in CW, iterate a bit on the plan, and then either 1) realize it's simple enough to just fix it, or 2) understand more about my intentions and use a shared session to drive a discussion with the team. But in either case, it's pretty nice to give my curiosity the space to progress forward, and also, capitalize on serendipitous learning opportunities. So while AI-powered code generation is clearly compelling, I agree with you that there are other, more broadly interesting benefits to the idea->code environment that CW is trying to explore. We have a LOT of work to do, but I'm excited about the potential :)
goncalo-r 2y ago
Imagine if AI could update my Jira ticket status.. I would pay big money for that.
odiroot 2y ago
Maybe AI can at least help with the deluge of Dependabot PRs ;)

by sdesol 2y ago

alfalfasprout 2y ago

The real problem is a large part of the enormous hype train is investors thinking they can replace talented engineers w/ AI. That's fundamentally doomed for failure. What AI can really do well is take an already competent engineer and suddenly get rid of a lot of the annoying tedium they had to deal with. Whether it's writing boilerplate, doing basic project management, organizing brain dumps/brainstorming, etc.

nprateem 2y ago
Yes. And they've also introduced a new kind of tedium in going round in circles while it doesn't understand you, then you give up and go back to SO.
sdesol 2y ago
I do think workspace by GitHub is a smart move. What is clear as day is, we don't have enough data to model how developers think and iterate to solve problems. With workspace, I see it as a way to capture structured data on how developers think. This is certainly a long game though. I think GitHub with MS money can continue to lose money on Copilot for the next 5 years to gather data. For other VC ventures, I don't think they can wait that long.
godzillabrennus 2y ago
These AI coding assistants already do what you are describing. At some point in the future, AI should be capable enough to do the job of a competent developer. This is not a short-term milestone, IMHO.
idan 2y ago
Bingo.
bossyTeacher 2y ago
Pretty much this. I worry that we might face an AI winter soon as investors in 2029 suddenly realise that LLMs are not going to replace anyone anytime soon and that they won't be able to obtain the fantasied cash out of replacing millions of workers with LLMs. Looking at the sad fate of Deep Mind (R.I.P), I feel that the shortermism generated by LLMs is going to be really painful
dgb23 2y ago
It’s pretty good at completing relatively simple code. If you already know what exactly you write and have a consistent and simple coding style it will typically recognize what you are doing and complete whole blocks. It takes an experienced eye to fix the code after, but overall it makes you a bit faster at those kinds of tasks. But if you’re in thinking and exploration mode then turn it off. It’s a massive distraction then.

lostintangent 2y ago

One of our main goals with Copilot Workspace is to help offer a "thought partner"/rubber duck for developers, and potentially even other members of a software team (as you said, PMs, designers, etc.). And code generation is obviously just one means of helping you think through a problem, along with a fleshed out spec (what are you trying to accomplish?), and plan for how to approach the problem (how might you actually accomplish it?). And so while we want to help generate code for tasks (e.g. from issue->PR), we also find that it's just super helpful to take an idea and make it more tangible/concrete. And then use that Workspace session to drive a conversation amongst the team, or spark the implementation. Especially since that might only take a couple clicks. Within the GitHub Next team, I'll often file issues on one of the team's project repos, and then pause for a moment, before realizing I'm actually curious how it might be accomplished. So I'll open it in CW, iterate a bit on the plan, and then either 1) realize it's simple enough to just fix it, or 2) understand more about my intentions and use a shared session to drive a discussion with the team. But in either case, it's pretty nice to give my curiosity the space to progress forward, and also, capitalize on serendipitous learning opportunities. So while AI-powered code generation is clearly compelling, I agree with you that there are other, more broadly interesting benefits to the idea->code environment that CW is trying to explore. We have a LOT of work to do, but I'm excited about the potential :)

goncalo-r 2y ago

Imagine if AI could update my Jira ticket status.. I would pay big money for that.

odiroot 2y ago

Maybe AI can at least help with the deluge of Dependabot PRs ;)