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Not doubting the importance of physical activity, but poor mental health makes it significantly harder to maintain fitness as a child. Often, school sports hav

Not doubting the importance of physical activity, but poor mental health makes it significantly harder to maintain fitness as a child. Often, school sports have minimum GPA requirements. A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you, given whatever mental condition that gives you anxiety or quirks? When can you even consider being active when much of the rest of your life is in shambles? You’re also less likely to have the ability to pay for it, given the correlations between low household income and poor mental health. Poor mental health just makes everything harder to do, and you see that impact every aspect of life in aggregate. The paper isn’t public so “controlling for confounders” is all you get, but I doubt they went through all the effort to have deep, revealing conversations about the home life or other nuanced cofounders of each participant.

itsoktocry 2y ago
>but I doubt they went through all the effort to have deep, revealing conversations about the home life or other nuanced cofounders of each participant. Why is it that nearly every paper linked on HN, someone is in the comments saying the research didn't go far enough? In this case without even reading the paper? Nothing in your critique is relevant to the fact that the authors found physical fitness and mental health linked. No, not everyone has equal access to sports. Yes mental health is complicated.
- surfpel 2y ago
  This is such a bad, overly-cynical take. > Why is it that nearly every paper linked on HN, someone is in the comments saying the research didn't go far enough? Because they usually don't. And for those who are actually curious, look up "reproducibility crisis" and "publish or perish" to learn more about issues in academia, and ask ChatGPT about why systemic skepticism of scientific research is critical to the process of science. > In this case without even reading the paper? Nothing in your critique is relevant to the fact that the authors found physical fitness and mental health linked. Nothing in your critique is relevant to the fact that the authors found physical fitness and mental health linked. Such irony, that you didn't read any part of the preview yourself. If you did, you'd see: "This study highlights the potential protective role of cardiorespiratory fitness, muscular endurance, and muscular power in preventing the onset of mental disorders. It warrants further investigation of the effectiveness of physical fitness programs as a preventive measure for mental disorders among children and adolescents." The viability of this correlation, given controls for confounders, changes the significance of the results dramatically. Perhaps you think the point of research is to publish pointless correlations and suggest wild ideas for journalists to turn into clickbait? For those actually curious: the authors are proposing a causation, and given the absence of any counter, it's a biased conclusion that attempts to increase the significance of the findings for the sake of publishing, at the cost of coming uncomfortably close to declaring a causal relationship. Not a criticism of the authors necessarily, but of the poor incentives plaguing academia. For studies like this to be of higher quality, they become very expensive, so given the lack of discussion regarding confounders in the preview, one should have strong skepticism regarding the actual practical significance of the strength of the causal relationship. Though if the research is of low quality, then it really all was pointless and probably only serves to keep the authors employed. At that point, the paper is only an unsubstantiated suggestion to study something else, so why even bother with the rest of the paper. That being said, having been an athlete for most of my life, I'm a huge proponent of children being given access to sports. > No, not everyone has equal access to sports. Yes mental health is complicated. Do you talk to people in real life like this? That's quite upsetting.
knallfrosch 2y ago
Instead of looking for excuses, find a way. You don't have to play tennis, climbing a tree will do.
- somenameforme 2y ago
  Or even just buying a few fun and dirt cheap physical toys - hula hoop, jump rope, etc. Staying in minimally decent physical shape is super easy and cheap - even more so for a child.
  - canucker2016 2y ago
    but look at this from the kid's perspective. What are their parents, siblings, and/or friends doing in their spare time? Are they going out for walks or bike rides? Or are they glued to some media/social media device? Sure, there are kids who will get physical activity regardless of nearby influences, but many will decide to emulate the behaviour of those around them.
    - somenameforme 2y ago
      The study was in Taiwan, not America. They have extremely good educational outcomes, the educational system is brutal, and the Chinese parent stereotype is also very much true. Screw off in Taiwanese schools and you don't even get go to high school, but end up in special vocational training schools - not that there's anything at all wrong with training for vocations, but I mention it due to the sharp contrast with the US, as well as the motivation it creates for kids to maintain more options in their future. So if a student is out of shape it's because they're in school from 7 to 5, in cram school from 5:30 to 7, doing homework until 9 or 10, and then doing it all over again the next day. But they're also the type that would still be 100% willing and able to squeeze in more physical stuff if told to do so, especially when it's good for your overall performance - which it is. --- Beyond all this, I really don't understand the modern Western trend of rejecting personal (or in this case parental) responsibility for basically anything and everything. It's predictably leading to terrible outcomes in near to every facet of life. Literally any parent in any situation can make their kid go jump rope for 20 minutes a day. It's even fun. Even better, the parent or parents could even do it with their children.
noah91734 2y ago
> A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. That you need to be driven at all to exercise is a huge part of the reason why exercise and fitness rates are so low in our youth. Our grandparents and great grandparents walked miles to go to school five days a week, and we've built our cities such that this is impossible or dangerous. We now live in towns that sprawl endlessly, and most of us forbid our kids to go outside unsupervised, so kids never find each other and play amongst themselves. And for what? What exactly are we gaining by building our cities and our towns like this? It makes us all unhealthier because we are forced to drive everywhere. It isolates us and our children, who are now lonely on top of being merely physically inactive. We are poorer because we spend so much money on car loans, car insurance, gas, and parking. We are just as likely to die a violent death in the suburbs due to the increase risk of car crashes. We are isolated, poor, unhealthy, and unhappy, and in exchange we get... what exactly? > The paper isn’t public so “controlling for confounders” is all you get, but I doubt they went through all the effort to have deep, revealing conversations about the home life or other nuanced cofounders of each participant. The study was conducted in Taiwan which does not suffer from US-style car extremism. "Children cannot go out to play because their parents cannot afford to drive them" is a statement they would consider unthinkably psychotic. Can they not use public transit, or at worst, walk to where all the other neighborhood children are playing unorganized?
- slothtrop 2y ago
  Intramurals are one option, often favored by immigrant parents who place more importance on academics, to exercise at school and by extension (usually) fairly close to home (see: volleyball, basketball, wrestling). Aside from some sports that require lots of travel around the city (like hockey, soccer) there are normally quite a few that tend to stay fixed, except for tournaments.
  - noah91734 2y ago
    You are missing the point entirely. Only in America is "exercise" something you must go out of your way to do. Walking (miles) is exercise. Playing is exercise. Our kids do neither of these things independently of household income because we've built our cities to make walking impossible and dangerous, and because we've now normalized locking our kids away indoors and shoving an iPad in their face because we convinced ourselves that they will get kidnapped or run over by a car if they are ever outside and unsupervised.
slothtrop 2y ago
Obesity is an epidemic, broken or abusive households are not. It doesn't make sense to be skeptical of fitness on the conceit that it might not handle issues in the margins (except, they do -- sports can improve self-esteem in kids who otherwise struggle). > Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you Kids are generally pretty accepting, and in a sports setting they spend nearly all of their time focused on playing, as they should be. It would require egregious behavior for an entire team not to "accept" you. > given whatever mental condition that gives you anxiety or quirks? No one cares about quirks. They care if you're a dick, or waste everyone's time in the field.
- quesera 2y ago
  This is so completely not true -- but if you're on the right side of ordinary, you do have the privilege of believing it.
  - slothtrop 2y ago
    The stats speak for themselves (obesity rates are very high, there's no reason to believe troubled kids are overrepresented among the obese, and research shows sports programs can improve self-esteem and socialization in children). You seem to be particularly hung up on the notion of kids not "accepting" another - there's no reason to believe this. If coaches do their jobs (and they usually do) they foster camaraderie that includes everyone. I was quiet as a kid, and was never left out in a sports team. The anecdote pissing contest is useless. Show me data.
    - quesera 2y ago
      I don't believe you have, honestly, met children. Your qualification of coaches who do their jobs is exactly the problem. Kids are cruel, and adults are negligent. Not always, but far too often. I was also the quiet kid who did not attract negative attention, but I saw it then and I see it now. You're completely ignoring the marginal kids. It's not about obesity, and that's not what I was responding to initially. You used the word "generally", and that's fine. But you're overlooking a significant cohort, and your dismissive attitude is 100% reminiscent of the crappy administrators and coaches who play their roles in the problem. What sports do you coach? And do you, perchance, also teach 7th grade history? I feel like we might have met before.
TacticalCoder 2y ago
> ... A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you... I've never been and shall never be a team player. I go my own way. Never did any team sport (I hate them and I hate watching them). My parents never drove me to any practice (OK, OK, one year of judo but that's it). A crappy skateboard, a used BMX clone, and self-assembled rollerskates go a long way (and in the not so long run cost less money than the fuel to drive to sport). I'm still fit at 51 and I attribute that to me moving my arse off when I was a kid (and then teenager) and going out to play in the streets and parks every single day with my skate/roller/bicycle. People should stop looking for excuses. And they should especially stop looking to excuse others. Others don't like you? Grow a pair. Build a carapace. Learn to wheelie and learn to do kickflips. You'll get the girls. Team sports are totally overrated (nowadays I still play some tennis).
- deodar 2y ago
  > Others don't like you? Grow a pair. Stop being depressed.

itsoktocry 2y ago

>but I doubt they went through all the effort to have deep, revealing conversations about the home life or other nuanced cofounders of each participant. Why is it that nearly every paper linked on HN, someone is in the comments saying the research didn't go far enough? In this case without even reading the paper? Nothing in your critique is relevant to the fact that the authors found physical fitness and mental health linked. No, not everyone has equal access to sports. Yes mental health is complicated.

surfpel 2y ago
This is such a bad, overly-cynical take. > Why is it that nearly every paper linked on HN, someone is in the comments saying the research didn't go far enough? Because they usually don't. And for those who are actually curious, look up "reproducibility crisis" and "publish or perish" to learn more about issues in academia, and ask ChatGPT about why systemic skepticism of scientific research is critical to the process of science. > In this case without even reading the paper? Nothing in your critique is relevant to the fact that the authors found physical fitness and mental health linked. Nothing in your critique is relevant to the fact that the authors found physical fitness and mental health linked. Such irony, that you didn't read any part of the preview yourself. If you did, you'd see: "This study highlights the potential protective role of cardiorespiratory fitness, muscular endurance, and muscular power in preventing the onset of mental disorders. It warrants further investigation of the effectiveness of physical fitness programs as a preventive measure for mental disorders among children and adolescents." The viability of this correlation, given controls for confounders, changes the significance of the results dramatically. Perhaps you think the point of research is to publish pointless correlations and suggest wild ideas for journalists to turn into clickbait? For those actually curious: the authors are proposing a causation, and given the absence of any counter, it's a biased conclusion that attempts to increase the significance of the findings for the sake of publishing, at the cost of coming uncomfortably close to declaring a causal relationship. Not a criticism of the authors necessarily, but of the poor incentives plaguing academia. For studies like this to be of higher quality, they become very expensive, so given the lack of discussion regarding confounders in the preview, one should have strong skepticism regarding the actual practical significance of the strength of the causal relationship. Though if the research is of low quality, then it really all was pointless and probably only serves to keep the authors employed. At that point, the paper is only an unsubstantiated suggestion to study something else, so why even bother with the rest of the paper. That being said, having been an athlete for most of my life, I'm a huge proponent of children being given access to sports. > No, not everyone has equal access to sports. Yes mental health is complicated. Do you talk to people in real life like this? That's quite upsetting.

knallfrosch 2y ago

Instead of looking for excuses, find a way. You don't have to play tennis, climbing a tree will do.

somenameforme 2y ago
Or even just buying a few fun and dirt cheap physical toys - hula hoop, jump rope, etc. Staying in minimally decent physical shape is super easy and cheap - even more so for a child.
- canucker2016 2y ago
  but look at this from the kid's perspective. What are their parents, siblings, and/or friends doing in their spare time? Are they going out for walks or bike rides? Or are they glued to some media/social media device? Sure, there are kids who will get physical activity regardless of nearby influences, but many will decide to emulate the behaviour of those around them.
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    The study was in Taiwan, not America. They have extremely good educational outcomes, the educational system is brutal, and the Chinese parent stereotype is also very much true. Screw off in Taiwanese schools and you don't even get go to high school, but end up in special vocational training schools - not that there's anything at all wrong with training for vocations, but I mention it due to the sharp contrast with the US, as well as the motivation it creates for kids to maintain more options in their future. So if a student is out of shape it's because they're in school from 7 to 5, in cram school from 5:30 to 7, doing homework until 9 or 10, and then doing it all over again the next day. But they're also the type that would still be 100% willing and able to squeeze in more physical stuff if told to do so, especially when it's good for your overall performance - which it is. --- Beyond all this, I really don't understand the modern Western trend of rejecting personal (or in this case parental) responsibility for basically anything and everything. It's predictably leading to terrible outcomes in near to every facet of life. Literally any parent in any situation can make their kid go jump rope for 20 minutes a day. It's even fun. Even better, the parent or parents could even do it with their children.

noah91734 2y ago

> A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. That you need to be driven at all to exercise is a huge part of the reason why exercise and fitness rates are so low in our youth. Our grandparents and great grandparents walked miles to go to school five days a week, and we've built our cities such that this is impossible or dangerous. We now live in towns that sprawl endlessly, and most of us forbid our kids to go outside unsupervised, so kids never find each other and play amongst themselves. And for what? What exactly are we gaining by building our cities and our towns like this? It makes us all unhealthier because we are forced to drive everywhere. It isolates us and our children, who are now lonely on top of being merely physically inactive. We are poorer because we spend so much money on car loans, car insurance, gas, and parking. We are just as likely to die a violent death in the suburbs due to the increase risk of car crashes. We are isolated, poor, unhealthy, and unhappy, and in exchange we get... what exactly? > The paper isn’t public so “controlling for confounders” is all you get, but I doubt they went through all the effort to have deep, revealing conversations about the home life or other nuanced cofounders of each participant. The study was conducted in Taiwan which does not suffer from US-style car extremism. "Children cannot go out to play because their parents cannot afford to drive them" is a statement they would consider unthinkably psychotic. Can they not use public transit, or at worst, walk to where all the other neighborhood children are playing unorganized?

slothtrop 2y ago
Intramurals are one option, often favored by immigrant parents who place more importance on academics, to exercise at school and by extension (usually) fairly close to home (see: volleyball, basketball, wrestling). Aside from some sports that require lots of travel around the city (like hockey, soccer) there are normally quite a few that tend to stay fixed, except for tournaments.
- noah91734 2y ago
  You are missing the point entirely. Only in America is "exercise" something you must go out of your way to do. Walking (miles) is exercise. Playing is exercise. Our kids do neither of these things independently of household income because we've built our cities to make walking impossible and dangerous, and because we've now normalized locking our kids away indoors and shoving an iPad in their face because we convinced ourselves that they will get kidnapped or run over by a car if they are ever outside and unsupervised.

slothtrop 2y ago

Obesity is an epidemic, broken or abusive households are not. It doesn't make sense to be skeptical of fitness on the conceit that it might not handle issues in the margins (except, they do -- sports can improve self-esteem in kids who otherwise struggle). > Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you Kids are generally pretty accepting, and in a sports setting they spend nearly all of their time focused on playing, as they should be. It would require egregious behavior for an entire team not to "accept" you. > given whatever mental condition that gives you anxiety or quirks? No one cares about quirks. They care if you're a dick, or waste everyone's time in the field.

quesera 2y ago
This is so completely not true -- but if you're on the right side of ordinary, you do have the privilege of believing it.
- slothtrop 2y ago
  The stats speak for themselves (obesity rates are very high, there's no reason to believe troubled kids are overrepresented among the obese, and research shows sports programs can improve self-esteem and socialization in children). You seem to be particularly hung up on the notion of kids not "accepting" another - there's no reason to believe this. If coaches do their jobs (and they usually do) they foster camaraderie that includes everyone. I was quiet as a kid, and was never left out in a sports team. The anecdote pissing contest is useless. Show me data.
  - quesera 2y ago
    I don't believe you have, honestly, met children. Your qualification of coaches who do their jobs is exactly the problem. Kids are cruel, and adults are negligent. Not always, but far too often. I was also the quiet kid who did not attract negative attention, but I saw it then and I see it now. You're completely ignoring the marginal kids. It's not about obesity, and that's not what I was responding to initially. You used the word "generally", and that's fine. But you're overlooking a significant cohort, and your dismissive attitude is 100% reminiscent of the crappy administrators and coaches who play their roles in the problem. What sports do you coach? And do you, perchance, also teach 7th grade history? I feel like we might have met before.

TacticalCoder 2y ago

> ... A poor home life increases chances of mental illness and decreases chances that someone will drive you to practice. Will you even maintain the team sport if your teammates never accept you... I've never been and shall never be a team player. I go my own way. Never did any team sport (I hate them and I hate watching them). My parents never drove me to any practice (OK, OK, one year of judo but that's it). A crappy skateboard, a used BMX clone, and self-assembled rollerskates go a long way (and in the not so long run cost less money than the fuel to drive to sport). I'm still fit at 51 and I attribute that to me moving my arse off when I was a kid (and then teenager) and going out to play in the streets and parks every single day with my skate/roller/bicycle. People should stop looking for excuses. And they should especially stop looking to excuse others. Others don't like you? Grow a pair. Build a carapace. Learn to wheelie and learn to do kickflips. You'll get the girls. Team sports are totally overrated (nowadays I still play some tennis).

deodar 2y ago
> Others don't like you? Grow a pair. Stop being depressed.