4 ms·

> Maybe you and I are on the side of The Internet Archive. Maybe we are such big fans of Archive.org that we want to come to their defense. > But feelings don

by jawns 2y ago

> Maybe you and I are on the side of The Internet Archive. Maybe we are such big fans of Archive.org that we want to come to their defense. > But feelings don't matter here. Only facts. And the facts are simple. The Archive's actions and statements (and questionable legal defense) have all but ensured a loss in this case. This is what has surprised me about people's defense of IA. When you look at the facts and ignore the admittedly good work they do elsewhere, it's clear that they not only ran afoul of the law but thumbed their noses at it. But so many people are quick to come to its defense because they love IA so much for the other stuff they do and don't want it to go away.

bluefirebrand 2y ago
> it's clear that they not only ran afoul of the law but thumbed their noses at it When laws are bad, people should thumb their nose at them Good on them for using the platform they have to try and push for real change, at personal risk to themselves and their operations too
- bell-cot 2y ago
  > When laws are bad, people should thumb their nose at them When the electrical code says that there should be no voltage in the light sockets, then people should stick their fingers into them - regardless of what numbers the voltmeters show. Right?
  - 0xedd 2y ago
    You misread; He didn't say all laws are bad. But, only an idiot can think that a world where corps write laws isn't corrupt. None of us, right?
- mminer237 2y ago
  I don't even think this law is bad, other than maybe being too harsh. If this was allowed, why would anyone ever buy a book? I'm not going to pay any amount of money for a book I can legally digitally download for free. I realize physical books have an attractive quality, but I don't think that's enough to support an entire industry.
- justinclift 2y ago
  > When laws are bad, people should thumb their nose at them Sure. But use some intelligence and risk management when you're doing it. This was just outright stupidity, and there's no excuse for it. :( :( :(
- ezekiel68 2y ago
  > When laws are bad, people should thumb their nose at them You (and Internet Archive) are about to learn what happens when the courts fail to be persuaded regarding the 'badness' of the law in question.
  - LocalH 2y ago
    Yet another example of the laws of the world being bought by large powerful moneyed interests.
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    All throughout history there have been people who break laws they disagree with and get punished for it Sometimes those laws wind up changed later, because of their actions I personally don't agree that this particular thing is worth taking a stand on, but I do applaud Internet Archive for being willing to take a stand for what they believe is important enough. It takes guts
    - Intralexical 2y ago
      I think this issue is worth taking a stand on, and through this entire situation I'm just peeved that they chose this particular way to fight for it. They couldn't find a more effective and less risky way to try to change the law than bashing their face against it, with predictable results?
- phendrenad2 2y ago
  I think you're framing this as a novel angle, but everyone has already arrived at this angle. Yes, it's admirable that they're fighting the good fight, but there is a terrible price: the potential of losing IA. For not just us, but future generations. IA is essential to historical research right now, and holding a match to it unless some relatively-trivial copyright changes are made is questionable, is it not?
tombert 2y ago
Yeah, this is my issue with it too. The Wayback Machine is awesome, Controlled Digital Lending is cool, becoming a host for Abandonware and/or Lost Media is definitely great, but I think a lot of people don't seem to realize that IA is sort of becoming a piracy website. I mean, it's trivial to find entire MAME romsets for download [1], Super Mario Odyssey and Super Mario Wonder roms [2], the entire season 1 of Hilda from Netflix [3], huge collections of PS4 games [4], and the list goes on. Just to be clear, this required nearly zero effort on my part, I just looked up "Internet Archive PS4" on Kagi and found this in about four seconds. You can do this with basically any media and find something. IA needs to do something about this stuff, because it's a matter of "when", not "if", for these companies taking legal action, and I cannot imagine a future where IA wins. They're a huge target with a lot of public exposure, and data harboring laws only get you so far. [1] https://archive.org/details/mame-merged https://archive.org/details/mame-merged [2] https://archive.org/download/street-fighter-30th-anniversary-collection-0100024008310000v-0 https://archive.org/download/street-fighter-30th-anniversary... [3] https://archive.org/details/hilda-season-complete-episodes https://archive.org/details/hilda-season-complete-episodes [4] https://archive.org/download/CG_Sony_PlayStation_4 https://archive.org/download/CG_Sony_PlayStation_4
- gs17 2y ago
  I genuinely don't understand why they're not making any serious attempt to clean it up (also how Nintendo hasn't gone after them, they cease and desist their own paying fans!). Maybe moderation would cost more than the storage/bandwidth so they can leave cleaning it for when legal issues happen. The "emergency library" is at least understandable as a special case.
  - tombert 2y ago
    I'm sure Nintendo knows about it, they're a multibillion dollar company that's famously litigious and it's not like the IA is some obscure part of the deep web, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're just biding their time to see how this lawsuit goes. They might be afraid of the optics of suing a library, but I just think it's a matter of time before they get over that.
  - 2y ago
handsclean 2y ago
No, I’m quick to come to their defense because this law is wrong and immoral. “One has a moral duty to disobey unjust laws.” —MLKJ
lucb1e 2y ago
Call me out if I'm misremembering this, but I think the vast majority of comments were of the same opinion (then and now) and not "so many people are quick to come to its defense because they love IA so much for the other stuff". I'm sure there was a lot of "I love the IA so much for the other stuff" but then it was also followed by something like "but wtf is this risk they're taking"

by jawns 2y ago

bluefirebrand 2y ago

> it's clear that they not only ran afoul of the law but thumbed their noses at it When laws are bad, people should thumb their nose at them Good on them for using the platform they have to try and push for real change, at personal risk to themselves and their operations too

bell-cot 2y ago
> When laws are bad, people should thumb their nose at them When the electrical code says that there should be no voltage in the light sockets, then people should stick their fingers into them - regardless of what numbers the voltmeters show. Right?
- 0xedd 2y ago
  You misread; He didn't say all laws are bad. But, only an idiot can think that a world where corps write laws isn't corrupt. None of us, right?
mminer237 2y ago
I don't even think this law is bad, other than maybe being too harsh. If this was allowed, why would anyone ever buy a book? I'm not going to pay any amount of money for a book I can legally digitally download for free. I realize physical books have an attractive quality, but I don't think that's enough to support an entire industry.
justinclift 2y ago
> When laws are bad, people should thumb their nose at them Sure. But use some intelligence and risk management when you're doing it. This was just outright stupidity, and there's no excuse for it. :( :( :(
ezekiel68 2y ago
> When laws are bad, people should thumb their nose at them You (and Internet Archive) are about to learn what happens when the courts fail to be persuaded regarding the 'badness' of the law in question.
- LocalH 2y ago
  Yet another example of the laws of the world being bought by large powerful moneyed interests.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  All throughout history there have been people who break laws they disagree with and get punished for it Sometimes those laws wind up changed later, because of their actions I personally don't agree that this particular thing is worth taking a stand on, but I do applaud Internet Archive for being willing to take a stand for what they believe is important enough. It takes guts
  - Intralexical 2y ago
    I think this issue is worth taking a stand on, and through this entire situation I'm just peeved that they chose this particular way to fight for it. They couldn't find a more effective and less risky way to try to change the law than bashing their face against it, with predictable results?
phendrenad2 2y ago
I think you're framing this as a novel angle, but everyone has already arrived at this angle. Yes, it's admirable that they're fighting the good fight, but there is a terrible price: the potential of losing IA. For not just us, but future generations. IA is essential to historical research right now, and holding a match to it unless some relatively-trivial copyright changes are made is questionable, is it not?

tombert 2y ago

Yeah, this is my issue with it too. The Wayback Machine is awesome, Controlled Digital Lending is cool, becoming a host for Abandonware and/or Lost Media is definitely great, but I think a lot of people don't seem to realize that IA is sort of becoming a piracy website. I mean, it's trivial to find entire MAME romsets for download [1], Super Mario Odyssey and Super Mario Wonder roms [2], the entire season 1 of Hilda from Netflix [3], huge collections of PS4 games [4], and the list goes on. Just to be clear, this required nearly zero effort on my part, I just looked up "Internet Archive PS4" on Kagi and found this in about four seconds. You can do this with basically any media and find something. IA needs to do something about this stuff, because it's a matter of "when", not "if", for these companies taking legal action, and I cannot imagine a future where IA wins. They're a huge target with a lot of public exposure, and data harboring laws only get you so far. [1] https://archive.org/details/mame-merged https://archive.org/details/mame-merged [2] https://archive.org/download/street-fighter-30th-anniversary-collection-0100024008310000v-0 https://archive.org/download/street-fighter-30th-anniversary... [3] https://archive.org/details/hilda-season-complete-episodes https://archive.org/details/hilda-season-complete-episodes [4] https://archive.org/download/CG_Sony_PlayStation_4 https://archive.org/download/CG_Sony_PlayStation_4

gs17 2y ago
I genuinely don't understand why they're not making any serious attempt to clean it up (also how Nintendo hasn't gone after them, they cease and desist their own paying fans!). Maybe moderation would cost more than the storage/bandwidth so they can leave cleaning it for when legal issues happen. The "emergency library" is at least understandable as a special case.
- tombert 2y ago
  I'm sure Nintendo knows about it, they're a multibillion dollar company that's famously litigious and it's not like the IA is some obscure part of the deep web, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're just biding their time to see how this lawsuit goes. They might be afraid of the optics of suing a library, but I just think it's a matter of time before they get over that.
- 2y ago

handsclean 2y ago

No, I’m quick to come to their defense because this law is wrong and immoral. “One has a moral duty to disobey unjust laws.” —MLKJ

lucb1e 2y ago

Call me out if I'm misremembering this, but I think the vast majority of comments were of the same opinion (then and now) and not "so many people are quick to come to its defense because they love IA so much for the other stuff". I'm sure there was a lot of "I love the IA so much for the other stuff" but then it was also followed by something like "but wtf is this risk they're taking"