4 ms·

People seem to forget that a lot if not most of IT has some form of military background/funding behind it. Be it the first computers, the Internet, RISC CPUs,

by steve1977 3y ago

People seem to forget that a lot if not most of IT has some form of military background/funding behind it. Be it the first computers, the Internet, RISC CPUs, BSD UNIX and much much more. You’re free not to like this fact of course, but then using the technologies anyway is a bit of a double standard.

myaccountonhn 3y ago
I think it’s different to actively endorse something vs having it be used for something. If you’re working in a community producing axes and you’re later seeing the organization advertising them for murder instead of cutting down trees, you might understandably not wanna be part of it anymore or try to change the organization.
- steve1977 3y ago
  But a lot of the technologies were explicitly designed with military use in mind. It’s not like some unintended and unplanned side effect. So a better analogy would be swords that can also be used to cut fruit instead of killing maybe.
  - myaccountonhn 3y ago
    But we’re in a thread about leadership crisis of nix here. Was nix designed explicitly for military in mind?
    - steve1977 3y ago
      I don't know. The designer and founder of nix at least does not seem to explicitly exclude military use. From what I understand, this is actually the root cause of the conflict here; the founder of the project seems to be fine with military use, some other members of the community are not.
dwb 3y ago
Are you really expecting people critical of the US military to not use computers, else be keeping a "double standard"?
- steve1977 3y ago
  I think these people are keeping a double standard, yes.
  - dwb 3y ago
    Are you ideologically aligned with the distant origin of everything you use and consume?
    - steve1977 3y ago
      I try to be aware of these origins at least. But we are not talking about distant origins here.
      - dwb 3y ago
        So if you're aware it's ok? Where has anyone in this story shown themselves to be unaware?
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    And yet you expect to pull social security some day right? Clearly that makes you an ardent communist right?
_cenw 3y ago
This is missing the point in the same way that anti-capitalists sometimes get told to just not use money. Or critics of colonialism to just live somewhere else. There are things too essential to boycott - whether we personally like them or their history. It's also a lazy retort that doesn't quite interact with the substance of the critique.
- steve1977 3y ago
  > This is missing the point in the same way that anti-capitalists sometimes get told to just not use money. Except that's not what I'm doing. It's more like I'm telling anti-capitalists not to trade stock options in order to buy Porsches.
colinsane 3y ago
i'm fascinated by this because a lot of my involvement in open source is a pretty direct reaction against state actors like NSA who undermine my privacy. and if i wanted to i could point out that the military took other things away from our field too, like Alan Turing. but ultimately, i think the argument is just that any institution which dumps a lot of money into a space deserves loyalty for that alone, but where's the substance in that? i mean sure, "don't bite the hand that feeds you", but also if you're grown and aren't so desperate for food anymore, then it's completely reasonable, arguably expected, for you to act on principles higher than money.
- michtzik 3y ago
  How did the military take Alan Turing away from our field?
  - colinsane 3y ago
    it's believed he committed suicide after losing his employment -- and lots of other things -- on account of being gay. strictly speaking it wasn't the military, but a different part of the security apparatus.
    - steve1977 3y ago
      No, it was not "strictly speaking it wasn't the military" - it was not the military at all. It was the civil legal system in the UK. If it was suicide at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#Death
- steve1977 3y ago
  > then it's completely reasonable, arguably expected, for you to act on principles higher than money. Well that was kind of my point. I see people act on principles of morality when it doesn't negatively affect their convenience and at the same time ignore those principles when it affects their convenience. For me that is the definition of a double standard. That's it. I'm not saying we should put these people in jail ;)
jijijijij 3y ago
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...
davidgerard 3y ago
Yet you participate in society. Curious!
- steve1977 3y ago
  Straw man
  - davidgerard 3y ago
    he was in a well, actually
    - steve1977 3y ago
      Well then…

myaccountonhn 3y ago

I think it’s different to actively endorse something vs having it be used for something. If you’re working in a community producing axes and you’re later seeing the organization advertising them for murder instead of cutting down trees, you might understandably not wanna be part of it anymore or try to change the organization.

steve1977 3y ago
But a lot of the technologies were explicitly designed with military use in mind. It’s not like some unintended and unplanned side effect. So a better analogy would be swords that can also be used to cut fruit instead of killing maybe.
- myaccountonhn 3y ago
  But we’re in a thread about leadership crisis of nix here. Was nix designed explicitly for military in mind?
  - steve1977 3y ago
    I don't know. The designer and founder of nix at least does not seem to explicitly exclude military use. From what I understand, this is actually the root cause of the conflict here; the founder of the project seems to be fine with military use, some other members of the community are not.

dwb 3y ago

Are you really expecting people critical of the US military to not use computers, else be keeping a "double standard"?

steve1977 3y ago
I think these people are keeping a double standard, yes.
- dwb 3y ago
  Are you ideologically aligned with the distant origin of everything you use and consume?
  - steve1977 3y ago
    I try to be aware of these origins at least. But we are not talking about distant origins here.
    - dwb 3y ago
      So if you're aware it's ok? Where has anyone in this story shown themselves to be unaware?
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  And yet you expect to pull social security some day right? Clearly that makes you an ardent communist right?

_cenw 3y ago

This is missing the point in the same way that anti-capitalists sometimes get told to just not use money. Or critics of colonialism to just live somewhere else. There are things too essential to boycott - whether we personally like them or their history. It's also a lazy retort that doesn't quite interact with the substance of the critique.

steve1977 3y ago
> This is missing the point in the same way that anti-capitalists sometimes get told to just not use money. Except that's not what I'm doing. It's more like I'm telling anti-capitalists not to trade stock options in order to buy Porsches.

colinsane 3y ago

i'm fascinated by this because a lot of my involvement in open source is a pretty direct reaction against state actors like NSA who undermine my privacy. and if i wanted to i could point out that the military took other things away from our field too, like Alan Turing. but ultimately, i think the argument is just that any institution which dumps a lot of money into a space deserves loyalty for that alone, but where's the substance in that? i mean sure, "don't bite the hand that feeds you", but also if you're grown and aren't so desperate for food anymore, then it's completely reasonable, arguably expected, for you to act on principles higher than money.

michtzik 3y ago
How did the military take Alan Turing away from our field?
- colinsane 3y ago
  it's believed he committed suicide after losing his employment -- and lots of other things -- on account of being gay. strictly speaking it wasn't the military, but a different part of the security apparatus.
  - steve1977 3y ago
    No, it was not "strictly speaking it wasn't the military" - it was not the military at all. It was the civil legal system in the UK. If it was suicide at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#Death
steve1977 3y ago
> then it's completely reasonable, arguably expected, for you to act on principles higher than money. Well that was kind of my point. I see people act on principles of morality when it doesn't negatively affect their convenience and at the same time ignore those principles when it affects their convenience. For me that is the definition of a double standard. That's it. I'm not saying we should put these people in jail ;)

jijijijij 3y ago

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...

davidgerard 3y ago

Yet you participate in society. Curious!

steve1977 3y ago
Straw man
- davidgerard 3y ago
  he was in a well, actually
  - steve1977 3y ago
    Well then…