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> reciprocity of access to the Chinese market This is an argument that is too complex to be wrap into the ban of a single company. For instance the US car mar

> reciprocity of access to the Chinese market This is an argument that is too complex to be wrap into the ban of a single company. For instance the US car market has incentives helping cars under some specific conditions that conveniently put all foreign cars and truck at a disadvantage, if there's not an outright "built in the US" specification on it [0]. And China will have other indirect ways to protect specific markets (denying IP protection basically kills some industry sectors for instance). Then the US will raise tariffs, and China put other barriers etc. Reciprocity is a moral assessment, international trade is just way too complicated for that IMHO. On TikTok specifically, the US gov seeking control over a foreign asset is probably not a about following policies or not. Otherwise asking for an ownership change makes no sense: imagine a court deciding that FTX didn't follow banking policies so another entity buying it within a year is the solution. No, in these cases the problematic entity is disolved and people go to jail. [0] https://medium.com/vision-zero-cities-journal/the-chicken-tax-and-other-ways-the-u-s-government-subsidizes-your-ford-f-150-444a5164c627 https://medium.com/vision-zero-cities-journal/the-chicken-ta...

jmyeet 2y ago
> This is an argument that is too complex to be wrap into the ban of a single company. I disagree. There are several considerations here: 1. Free speech: a ban on a specific company is going to be challenged on First Amendment grounds. ByteDance has a plausible case here. The bar for government restriction on speech is necessarily high. This raises the question of whether Congress actually wants this to pass or is this performative? That's an unanswered question. But a serious effort to clamp down on Tiktok in particular or supposed foreign control of speech in general would try to avoid 1A challenges. 2. To sell this to voters, putting it in terms of "I can't sell cars in China so we don't allow Chinese cars in the US" is easy to understand and it appeals to the innate sense of "fairness". 3. The reciprocity argument also falls outside of Free Speech issues. It's commerce not free speech, which courts are way more responsive to, even in cases where courts should see a 1S issue (eg various state laws banning anti-BDS movements). > Reciprocity is a moral assessment, international trade is just way too complicated for that IMHO. It's not. It's a core part of trade agreements, so much so that China needed a special dispensation in their WTO entry to avoid reciprocity requirements. > ... the US gov seeking control over a foreign asset is probably not a about following policies or not. Sure, it is. Meta or Twitter aren't under scrutiny. There's no effort around data privacy or how the algorithm works. Meta has gotten in trouble a few times for policy issues: eg racial discrimination in housing ads and allowing the import of drugs from Canada. > imagine a court deciding that FTX didn't follow banking policies so another entity buying it within a year is the solution. I don't have to imagine it. The FDIC takes over banks all the time.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  > I disagree. There are several considerations here [...] Sorry for the poor wording, I was referring to China/US reciprocity being a more complicated issue than whether TikTok can be banned or not. The former will never be resolved, while the latter will just be a court case. > It's not. It's a core part of trade agreements, so much so that China needed a special dispensation in their WTO entry to avoid reciprocity requirements. I was mistaken about what reciprocity represents, and you're right, it is a core part of trade agreements, and a term of art meaning something more precise than the general understanding of it. TIL. I'm looking at this as a primer: https://u.osu.edu/aede/2019/01/25/what-does-reciprocity-in-trade-negotiations-actually-mean/ https://u.osu.edu/aede/2019/01/25/what-does-reciprocity-in-t... But I couldn't find anything related to reciprocity regarding the entry of China to the WTO [0]. Even going through the report [1] it's just about China needing to open it's economy and accept foreign investment, including reworking it's IP laws and other pretty deep changes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_World_Trade_Organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_World_Trade_Orga... [1] https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/acc_e/chinabknot_feb01.doc https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/acc_e/chinabknot_feb01....

jmyeet 2y ago

> This is an argument that is too complex to be wrap into the ban of a single company. I disagree. There are several considerations here: 1. Free speech: a ban on a specific company is going to be challenged on First Amendment grounds. ByteDance has a plausible case here. The bar for government restriction on speech is necessarily high. This raises the question of whether Congress actually wants this to pass or is this performative? That's an unanswered question. But a serious effort to clamp down on Tiktok in particular or supposed foreign control of speech in general would try to avoid 1A challenges. 2. To sell this to voters, putting it in terms of "I can't sell cars in China so we don't allow Chinese cars in the US" is easy to understand and it appeals to the innate sense of "fairness". 3. The reciprocity argument also falls outside of Free Speech issues. It's commerce not free speech, which courts are way more responsive to, even in cases where courts should see a 1S issue (eg various state laws banning anti-BDS movements). > Reciprocity is a moral assessment, international trade is just way too complicated for that IMHO. It's not. It's a core part of trade agreements, so much so that China needed a special dispensation in their WTO entry to avoid reciprocity requirements. > ... the US gov seeking control over a foreign asset is probably not a about following policies or not. Sure, it is. Meta or Twitter aren't under scrutiny. There's no effort around data privacy or how the algorithm works. Meta has gotten in trouble a few times for policy issues: eg racial discrimination in housing ads and allowing the import of drugs from Canada. > imagine a court deciding that FTX didn't follow banking policies so another entity buying it within a year is the solution. I don't have to imagine it. The FDIC takes over banks all the time.

makeitdouble 2y ago
> I disagree. There are several considerations here [...] Sorry for the poor wording, I was referring to China/US reciprocity being a more complicated issue than whether TikTok can be banned or not. The former will never be resolved, while the latter will just be a court case. > It's not. It's a core part of trade agreements, so much so that China needed a special dispensation in their WTO entry to avoid reciprocity requirements. I was mistaken about what reciprocity represents, and you're right, it is a core part of trade agreements, and a term of art meaning something more precise than the general understanding of it. TIL. I'm looking at this as a primer: https://u.osu.edu/aede/2019/01/25/what-does-reciprocity-in-trade-negotiations-actually-mean/ https://u.osu.edu/aede/2019/01/25/what-does-reciprocity-in-t... But I couldn't find anything related to reciprocity regarding the entry of China to the WTO [0]. Even going through the report [1] it's just about China needing to open it's economy and accept foreign investment, including reworking it's IP laws and other pretty deep changes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_World_Trade_Organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_World_Trade_Orga... [1] https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/acc_e/chinabknot_feb01.doc https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/acc_e/chinabknot_feb01....