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This is really broadcasting a bad message abroad: the US can't be trusted anymore (it wasn't to be trusted too much in the first place) when it comes to busines

by gwervc 2y ago

This is really broadcasting a bad message abroad: the US can't be trusted anymore (it wasn't to be trusted too much in the first place) when it comes to business. Anyway, using the same logic, I can't wait for the UE to force US companies to sell Windows, iOS, AWS, etc. to European companies so those products can stay within our market.

VWWHFSfQ 2y ago
Unfortunately the EU is irrelevant so they're the ones following along with what USA wants. It's not the other way around.
Veraticus 2y ago
China already uses the same logic to ban American apps. People still try to do business with China, including other American businesses. And people will also continue to do business with America, including other Chinese businesses
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  And China is a terrible, autocratic nation which abuses people daily and uses slave labor from NK and Uighurs to produce goods for almost 0 cost. Why do we want to be like that? To prove to everyone that that works?
  - Veraticus 2y ago
    If you believe that is so, why is it incumbent on us to accept China's businesses worldwide? Shouldn't we be banning them more to protest slave labor and concentration camps? No country has a right to do business anywhere and everywhere. I feel like people are really grasping at straws to squeeze this argument under some kind of "freedom of speech" or "freedom of action" umbrella, but those concepts have only ever applied to humans, not nations.
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      I actually am fine with banning all Chinese businesses. Our ruling classes would dislike that. They ONLY want to ban Chinese businesses when they fear they might not have sole and total control over what Americans see and what "influences" them, and I hate that. It's that authoritarian impulse in rulers to keep people like docile sheep they can extract money out of and silence, that I hate.
  - derefr 2y ago
    If you already acknowledge that China (the CCP really; the average Chinese citizen is not complicit) is doing "evil" things — then do you not also acknowledge that one of the "evil" things the CCP does, is to suborn/coerce private Chinese individuals and companies into temporarily acting as foreign propaganda arms for CCP messaging? Even in a country with near-total freedom of speech, why would you knowingly permit a state-backed influence tool from such a known-"evil" country, to have a stranglehold over much of the attention of your civilian population? (Compare/contrast: the Canadian government's inquiry[1] into suspected foreign-state-led tampering of Canadian elections as executed through social-media marketing and psy-ops. Same question: why would any government knowingly permit this, if they had the tools to block it?) [1] https://apnews.com/article/public-inquiry-canada-foreign-interference-china-a630eef29379e8c93a5a52caa3ddd059 https://apnews.com/article/public-inquiry-canada-foreign-int... China is a dystopia, because the CCP combines internal propaganda against the West, with strong filters on Internet, news media, etc., such that it's very difficult (and often illegal) to "be informed" — i.e. to get any idea of what Western thought about China actually is, without the tainted lens of the CCP viewpoint. It's not just that you can't access "US propaganda mouthpieces" in China; you can't access any foreign media reporting about the US in China. Banning one foreign propaganda mouthpiece does not create a dystopia; and in fact, depending on what that propaganda vehicle is stating, can make your own state less dystopian. For the US to become "like China" in how it is manipulating the views of its citizens, it would have to be banning not only all Chinese-owned media (which it is not doing), but also banning any reporting on China from any neutral-third-party country — such that the only way to hear about China would be through US news media that the US government could suborn. Which is... not happening. Also, for the comparison to be valid, the US ban on Tiktok would have to be somehow analogous to China's ban on US news media. Which it's not, because Tiktok is not Chinese news media. (You could say that Douyin is Chinese news media of a sort — insofar as you might call Twitter "American news media." But Tiktok is not Douyin; no Douyin content is accessible on Tiktok.) Tiktok does not give Americans access to a bunch of Chinese-sourced information about China that the US government would want to suppress. Tiktok just does the same thing Instagram or Snapchat does — give Westerners a place to share their short-form content — but with the CCP being able to step in at any point and inject psy-ops or "tune the algorithm" toward their ends, because of their ultimate control over the platform. Rather than thinking of Tiktok as "Chinese news media", I think a more apt way to think about it, is as one of those scam apps that you find on app stores, that has stolen the (decompiled or FOSS) code from a popular app; injected a backdoor into it; and reuploaded it. Tiktok is the higher-effort version of this — it hasn't stolen anything, but instead independently implemented a (basically fungible) competitor to the other apps in its space. But, from the CCP's perspective, it's to the same end: like scam apps, Tiktok redirects Western civilian engagement and attention from apps that the CCP can't touch, into an app that the CCP is able to "nudge" at will.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Why do we want to be like that? We don’t. TikTok.com will continue to be freely accessible. That’s not true for Facebook in China.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- hnfong 2y ago
  First Google result for "China foreign direct investment" (no quotes) for me: "Foreign direct investment in China falls to 30-year low" https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Foreign-direct-investment-in-China-falls-to-30-year-low https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Foreign-direct-investment-in... I won't comment on whether prioritizing national security over being business friendly is right, I'm just saying there are consequences in China's case, and I believe there will be some consequences for the US as well.
- WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
  China don't "ban apps unless company sells it" "non-adversary", implying that China is your enemy, this doesn't make sense lol, pure propaganda at this point China tells ahead of time what the company is allowed or not allowed to do, then grant access if they comply TikTok comply with the US law, otherwise it would have already been banned The US is spreading some FUD to push some other laws and to prevent China from being leader in the US, they did the same with EU companies in the past, most notably French ones Guess who is working on "we don't have WeeChat in the west, let's copy WeeChat for our everything app" Yeah, you guessed right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aDPHpPGxD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aDPHpPGxD0
  - Veraticus 2y ago
    Uh, China has banned numerous US-based apps because they violate its censorship policies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma... That includes Twitter/X, so not sure what your YouTube video has to do with anything.
    - WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
      Read again, specially this line: "China tells ahead of time what the company is allowed or not allowed to do, then grant access if they comply" Are you implying that US companies should be above foreign local laws?
      - Veraticus 2y ago
        I did read that line: the result of a company not complying is them being banned. Those apps are not accessible anywhere in China. If you agree that companies should not be above the laws of the country they operate in, doesn't the same apply to ByteDance?
        WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
        You ask a question that's already answered in my post, what is your goal? "TikTok comply with the US law, otherwise it would have already been banned"
- smgit 2y ago
  India banned TikTok a while back but their trade with China just keeps growing - https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/renewable/chinas-share-in-indias-industrial-goods-imports-jump-to-30-from-21-in-last-15-years-gtri/109679285 https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/renewable/c... TikTok ban is more about the Attention Wars. Politicians in Democracies world over have walked into a trap by falling in love with Social Media. How do you get noticed, in the absurd reality created by social media, where everyone is given a mic hooked up to the same sound system? No one can win in this game. Its an arms race to nowhere. Instead of recognizing that and creating a coordination mechanism for who gets the mic, politicians are currently doing two things - 1. Buying more Ads (just check the ever growing ad spends by political parties world over) - this basically means Democracy is for sale to the largest ad buyers 2. Arm twisting the platforms
- ETHisso2017 2y ago
  Factually incorrect. China didn't ban US apps, it required US apps to obey local Chinese censorship laws. Some apps (like LinkedIn) stayed in compliance and stayed, while others left China.
  - Veraticus 2y ago
    What a weird stance to take! What happens if apps refuse to self-censor or obey Chinese censorship laws? They are banned. So indeed, China does ban US apps. Twitter/X did not just leave China; it is blocked in mainland China and no one can access it.
    - AlexandrB 2y ago
      While US apps are slightly harmed by losing access to a market, it's really the freedom of Chinese citizens that is impacted by China banning apps. The US banning TikTok will harm ByteDance's bottom line but it also sets a precedent that the US government can dictate what you install on your phone. Why are people advocating for this like it's some kind of victory for freedom?
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Why are people advocating for this like it's some kind of victory for freedom? We’re not. It’s a victory for national security. It’s a collective curtailment on freedom, similar to how we’ve agreed Americans are not free to finance terrorism.
    - ETHisso2017 2y ago
      That's not a weird stance at all. Twitter/X is blocked in China because it refuses to comply with Chinese law on censorship. China's law criminalizes behavior on censorship, which adheres to what modern notions of legal jurisprudence. The US law criminalizes origin and ownership, which violates a legal principle on bills of attainder.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
Rastonbury 2y ago
This isn't going to stop any future Tiktoks wanting to do business in the USA
barbariangrunge 2y ago
Well, the same argument stands. The way software works, using software makes you highly vulnerable to the whims of the software controller. Software is a new kind of product, rebranded lately as services, that takes control away from the customer after purchase. If you don’t take advantage of that dynamic, investor groups start questioning your ability to run the company, and governments start saying you’re helping criminals or terrorists. Wasn’t a law renewed recently allowing the USA to use surveillance against non Americans via tech? Honestly, I bet the eu isn’t that happy about being stuck with various products they can’t control. It’s a sovereignty issue. We should expect this to happen more and more in the next century
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by gwervc 2y ago

VWWHFSfQ 2y ago

Unfortunately the EU is irrelevant so they're the ones following along with what USA wants. It's not the other way around.

Veraticus 2y ago

China already uses the same logic to ban American apps. People still try to do business with China, including other American businesses. And people will also continue to do business with America, including other Chinese businesses

aprilthird2021 2y ago
And China is a terrible, autocratic nation which abuses people daily and uses slave labor from NK and Uighurs to produce goods for almost 0 cost. Why do we want to be like that? To prove to everyone that that works?
- Veraticus 2y ago
  If you believe that is so, why is it incumbent on us to accept China's businesses worldwide? Shouldn't we be banning them more to protest slave labor and concentration camps? No country has a right to do business anywhere and everywhere. I feel like people are really grasping at straws to squeeze this argument under some kind of "freedom of speech" or "freedom of action" umbrella, but those concepts have only ever applied to humans, not nations.
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    I actually am fine with banning all Chinese businesses. Our ruling classes would dislike that. They ONLY want to ban Chinese businesses when they fear they might not have sole and total control over what Americans see and what "influences" them, and I hate that. It's that authoritarian impulse in rulers to keep people like docile sheep they can extract money out of and silence, that I hate.
- derefr 2y ago
  If you already acknowledge that China (the CCP really; the average Chinese citizen is not complicit) is doing "evil" things — then do you not also acknowledge that one of the "evil" things the CCP does, is to suborn/coerce private Chinese individuals and companies into temporarily acting as foreign propaganda arms for CCP messaging? Even in a country with near-total freedom of speech, why would you knowingly permit a state-backed influence tool from such a known-"evil" country, to have a stranglehold over much of the attention of your civilian population? (Compare/contrast: the Canadian government's inquiry[1] into suspected foreign-state-led tampering of Canadian elections as executed through social-media marketing and psy-ops. Same question: why would any government knowingly permit this, if they had the tools to block it?) [1] https://apnews.com/article/public-inquiry-canada-foreign-interference-china-a630eef29379e8c93a5a52caa3ddd059 https://apnews.com/article/public-inquiry-canada-foreign-int... China is a dystopia, because the CCP combines internal propaganda against the West, with strong filters on Internet, news media, etc., such that it's very difficult (and often illegal) to "be informed" — i.e. to get any idea of what Western thought about China actually is, without the tainted lens of the CCP viewpoint. It's not just that you can't access "US propaganda mouthpieces" in China; you can't access any foreign media reporting about the US in China. Banning one foreign propaganda mouthpiece does not create a dystopia; and in fact, depending on what that propaganda vehicle is stating, can make your own state less dystopian. For the US to become "like China" in how it is manipulating the views of its citizens, it would have to be banning not only all Chinese-owned media (which it is not doing), but also banning any reporting on China from any neutral-third-party country — such that the only way to hear about China would be through US news media that the US government could suborn. Which is... not happening. Also, for the comparison to be valid, the US ban on Tiktok would have to be somehow analogous to China's ban on US news media. Which it's not, because Tiktok is not Chinese news media. (You could say that Douyin is Chinese news media of a sort — insofar as you might call Twitter "American news media." But Tiktok is not Douyin; no Douyin content is accessible on Tiktok.) Tiktok does not give Americans access to a bunch of Chinese-sourced information about China that the US government would want to suppress. Tiktok just does the same thing Instagram or Snapchat does — give Westerners a place to share their short-form content — but with the CCP being able to step in at any point and inject psy-ops or "tune the algorithm" toward their ends, because of their ultimate control over the platform. Rather than thinking of Tiktok as "Chinese news media", I think a more apt way to think about it, is as one of those scam apps that you find on app stores, that has stolen the (decompiled or FOSS) code from a popular app; injected a backdoor into it; and reuploaded it. Tiktok is the higher-effort version of this — it hasn't stolen anything, but instead independently implemented a (basically fungible) competitor to the other apps in its space. But, from the CCP's perspective, it's to the same end: like scam apps, Tiktok redirects Western civilian engagement and attention from apps that the CCP can't touch, into an app that the CCP is able to "nudge" at will.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Why do we want to be like that? We don’t. TikTok.com will continue to be freely accessible. That’s not true for Facebook in China.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hnfong 2y ago
First Google result for "China foreign direct investment" (no quotes) for me: "Foreign direct investment in China falls to 30-year low" https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Foreign-direct-investment-in-China-falls-to-30-year-low https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Foreign-direct-investment-in... I won't comment on whether prioritizing national security over being business friendly is right, I'm just saying there are consequences in China's case, and I believe there will be some consequences for the US as well.
WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
China don't "ban apps unless company sells it" "non-adversary", implying that China is your enemy, this doesn't make sense lol, pure propaganda at this point China tells ahead of time what the company is allowed or not allowed to do, then grant access if they comply TikTok comply with the US law, otherwise it would have already been banned The US is spreading some FUD to push some other laws and to prevent China from being leader in the US, they did the same with EU companies in the past, most notably French ones Guess who is working on "we don't have WeeChat in the west, let's copy WeeChat for our everything app" Yeah, you guessed right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aDPHpPGxD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aDPHpPGxD0
- Veraticus 2y ago
  Uh, China has banned numerous US-based apps because they violate its censorship policies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma... That includes Twitter/X, so not sure what your YouTube video has to do with anything.
  - WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
    Read again, specially this line: "China tells ahead of time what the company is allowed or not allowed to do, then grant access if they comply" Are you implying that US companies should be above foreign local laws?
    - Veraticus 2y ago
      I did read that line: the result of a company not complying is them being banned. Those apps are not accessible anywhere in China. If you agree that companies should not be above the laws of the country they operate in, doesn't the same apply to ByteDance?
      - WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
        You ask a question that's already answered in my post, what is your goal? "TikTok comply with the US law, otherwise it would have already been banned"
smgit 2y ago
India banned TikTok a while back but their trade with China just keeps growing - https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/renewable/chinas-share-in-indias-industrial-goods-imports-jump-to-30-from-21-in-last-15-years-gtri/109679285 https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/renewable/c... TikTok ban is more about the Attention Wars. Politicians in Democracies world over have walked into a trap by falling in love with Social Media. How do you get noticed, in the absurd reality created by social media, where everyone is given a mic hooked up to the same sound system? No one can win in this game. Its an arms race to nowhere. Instead of recognizing that and creating a coordination mechanism for who gets the mic, politicians are currently doing two things - 1. Buying more Ads (just check the ever growing ad spends by political parties world over) - this basically means Democracy is for sale to the largest ad buyers 2. Arm twisting the platforms
ETHisso2017 2y ago
Factually incorrect. China didn't ban US apps, it required US apps to obey local Chinese censorship laws. Some apps (like LinkedIn) stayed in compliance and stayed, while others left China.
- Veraticus 2y ago
  What a weird stance to take! What happens if apps refuse to self-censor or obey Chinese censorship laws? They are banned. So indeed, China does ban US apps. Twitter/X did not just leave China; it is blocked in mainland China and no one can access it.
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    While US apps are slightly harmed by losing access to a market, it's really the freedom of Chinese citizens that is impacted by China banning apps. The US banning TikTok will harm ByteDance's bottom line but it also sets a precedent that the US government can dictate what you install on your phone. Why are people advocating for this like it's some kind of victory for freedom?
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Why are people advocating for this like it's some kind of victory for freedom? We’re not. It’s a victory for national security. It’s a collective curtailment on freedom, similar to how we’ve agreed Americans are not free to finance terrorism.
  - ETHisso2017 2y ago
    That's not a weird stance at all. Twitter/X is blocked in China because it refuses to comply with Chinese law on censorship. China's law criminalizes behavior on censorship, which adheres to what modern notions of legal jurisprudence. The US law criminalizes origin and ownership, which violates a legal principle on bills of attainder.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

Rastonbury 2y ago

This isn't going to stop any future Tiktoks wanting to do business in the USA

barbariangrunge 2y ago

Well, the same argument stands. The way software works, using software makes you highly vulnerable to the whims of the software controller. Software is a new kind of product, rebranded lately as services, that takes control away from the customer after purchase. If you don’t take advantage of that dynamic, investor groups start questioning your ability to run the company, and governments start saying you’re helping criminals or terrorists. Wasn’t a law renewed recently allowing the USA to use surveillance against non Americans via tech? Honestly, I bet the eu isn’t that happy about being stuck with various products they can’t control. It’s a sovereignty issue. We should expect this to happen more and more in the next century

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]