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Photo tagging for these kinds of things isn't great. But there's plenty of people with green headbands in news photos/videos I've seen over the past couple of m

Photo tagging for these kinds of things isn't great. But there's plenty of people with green headbands in news photos/videos I've seen over the past couple of months. There was a video with a woman walking around carrying a sign with a photo of a mass murderer with a fake name (can't find it at the moment), she had no idea who he was or what he did. The person that gave her the sign told her a fake story, it was unclear if he knew. The letters sent by Ivy leagues right after Oct 7th are probably the most damning. Letters that justified the massacre as "valid resistance" yet they later felt free to condemn Israels campaign to return the kidnapped civilians. A serious double standard. There's plenty of videos with people chanting "river to the sea" (including a US congresswoman) which is the slogan of the Hamas that calls for the destruction of Israel. There's stuff like this: https://www.makorrishon.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/1713469209-750x375.jpg https://www.makorrishon.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/171... Which justifies October 7th. Again, you can't justify violence and then condemn the result of said violence. Especially not when the Hamas is still holding hostages and refusing compromise. Right now all pro-Palestinian demonstrations are (intentionally or not) pro Hamas. Hamas hijacked the discussion and polluted it. They are encouraged by these demonstrations and see them as a sign of Israels imminent demise. That's why they're refusing the deals on the table and the war won't end. These demonstrations will also have a far worse impact. Trump is using this to sow doubt in swing states. He explicitly avoids talking about Israel and might win as a result (e.g. as Nixon won in a landslide during the height of anti-Vietnam war protests). This would be terrible all around. That would mean Ukraine would be at risk. The extremist Israeli government would have no one holding it back. As ineffective as Biden might seem to the casual observer, I can only imagine what Bibi would do without him.

racional 2y ago
There's plenty of videos with people chanting "river to the sea" which is the slogan of the Hamas that calls for the destruction of Israel. First off, that isn't what the slogan generally means as used by protestors. Or even most Palestinians, for that matter. Second, there are of course essentially equivalent variants that have been used by Jabotinsky, Likud, and of course Bibi and his crew among others over the years (e.g. "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"), as I'm sure you are perfectly aware. Which, aside from being more specific than the protesters' chant, are arguably even more obnoxious than the Hamas variant, given that the current hypernationalist regime in Israel seems intent on making, and -- unless it is stopped -- has the capability to make this deeply disturbing vision a reality (while the various Palestinian armed groups, in regard to the more extreme versions of their slogan, do not). In short: this is a well-read crowd, and your selectively filtered presentation of current events and well-known regional history simply won't work here.
- edanm 2y ago
  I agree. I think 90% of the people using that slogan (or taking part in the protests in general, come to think of it) have very little actual understanding of the conflict, the history, or what anything means. I don't think they should use the slogan, because it has a very clear history of being explicitly a call for the destruction of Israel. But I don't think we should automatically assume that everyone using that slogan today means it in the same way.
jhanschoo 2y ago
> plenty of people with green headbands in news photos/videos I've seen over the past couple of months > There's stuff like this I'm personally interested only in the student encampments. There are many other protests trying to join the momentum, but there are all kinds of extremists with different objectives and the students protesting in encampments would have the discipline and means to put out their consistent message and demand of ending excess civilian deaths and divestiture, and controlling access to others trying to co-opt their protest. > The letters sent by Ivy leagues right after Oct 7th are probably the most damning. I would draw a distinction between those letters and the current protests on encampment. > There's plenty of videos with people chanting "river to the sea" > organization who literally sabotaged the attempt we had to form a Palestinian state. They have chanted "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". I'm not a fan of the slogan either, as it expresses a desire for freedom without a more concrete demand for a particular solution (which may be peaceful or not); a listener who hears it interprets it as the solution that they expect the person saying it to want. The phrase "the phrase from the river to the sea" is not a Hamas thing, and Wikipedia can tell you that people of various persuasions have used it for their cause. Presumably, they have the same desire as you. > Right now all pro-Palestinian demonstrations are (intentionally or not) pro Hamas. I disagree. If you think that Israel is conducting war crimes in Gaza against Palestine civilians in its retaliation against Hamas, as it has been accused of, then the protest is a request for Israel to do it without doing such war crimes. For example, you can condemn acts of genocide by the US government against indigenous peoples during their colonial expansion without also considering that to be showing support for perpetrators of indigenous terrorist violence against the US, even though it might embolden their expressed casus belli. > They are encouraged by these demonstrations and see them as a sign of Israels imminent demise. That's why they're refusing the deals on the table and the war won't end. I don't think you can say with any certainty how such protests affect any decision made by Hamas.
- invalidname 2y ago
  > > Right now all pro-Palestinian demonstrations are (intentionally or not) pro Hamas. > > I disagree. If you think that Israel is conducting war crimes in Gaza against Palestine civilians in its retaliation against Hamas, as it has been accused of, then the protest is a request for Israel to do it without doing such war crimes. If that was the case you would have Israeli flags too. But Israelis who are for a two state solution were barred entry. Also the claims of war-crimes are problematic since the facts are so distorted with lies. A lot of the claims made by sources on the ground prove to be false after scrutiny. > I don't think you can say with any certainty how such protests affect any decision made by Hamas. It's a fact that they keep rejecting deals they said they would accept. Also he can: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/message-from-a-gazan-to-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-the-palestinian-cause-opinion/ar-AA1nFvT7 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/message-from-a-gazan-to...

racional 2y ago

There's plenty of videos with people chanting "river to the sea" which is the slogan of the Hamas that calls for the destruction of Israel. First off, that isn't what the slogan generally means as used by protestors. Or even most Palestinians, for that matter. Second, there are of course essentially equivalent variants that have been used by Jabotinsky, Likud, and of course Bibi and his crew among others over the years (e.g. "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"), as I'm sure you are perfectly aware. Which, aside from being more specific than the protesters' chant, are arguably even more obnoxious than the Hamas variant, given that the current hypernationalist regime in Israel seems intent on making, and -- unless it is stopped -- has the capability to make this deeply disturbing vision a reality (while the various Palestinian armed groups, in regard to the more extreme versions of their slogan, do not). In short: this is a well-read crowd, and your selectively filtered presentation of current events and well-known regional history simply won't work here.

edanm 2y ago
I agree. I think 90% of the people using that slogan (or taking part in the protests in general, come to think of it) have very little actual understanding of the conflict, the history, or what anything means. I don't think they should use the slogan, because it has a very clear history of being explicitly a call for the destruction of Israel. But I don't think we should automatically assume that everyone using that slogan today means it in the same way.

jhanschoo 2y ago

> plenty of people with green headbands in news photos/videos I've seen over the past couple of months > There's stuff like this I'm personally interested only in the student encampments. There are many other protests trying to join the momentum, but there are all kinds of extremists with different objectives and the students protesting in encampments would have the discipline and means to put out their consistent message and demand of ending excess civilian deaths and divestiture, and controlling access to others trying to co-opt their protest. > The letters sent by Ivy leagues right after Oct 7th are probably the most damning. I would draw a distinction between those letters and the current protests on encampment. > There's plenty of videos with people chanting "river to the sea" > organization who literally sabotaged the attempt we had to form a Palestinian state. They have chanted "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". I'm not a fan of the slogan either, as it expresses a desire for freedom without a more concrete demand for a particular solution (which may be peaceful or not); a listener who hears it interprets it as the solution that they expect the person saying it to want. The phrase "the phrase from the river to the sea" is not a Hamas thing, and Wikipedia can tell you that people of various persuasions have used it for their cause. Presumably, they have the same desire as you. > Right now all pro-Palestinian demonstrations are (intentionally or not) pro Hamas. I disagree. If you think that Israel is conducting war crimes in Gaza against Palestine civilians in its retaliation against Hamas, as it has been accused of, then the protest is a request for Israel to do it without doing such war crimes. For example, you can condemn acts of genocide by the US government against indigenous peoples during their colonial expansion without also considering that to be showing support for perpetrators of indigenous terrorist violence against the US, even though it might embolden their expressed casus belli. > They are encouraged by these demonstrations and see them as a sign of Israels imminent demise. That's why they're refusing the deals on the table and the war won't end. I don't think you can say with any certainty how such protests affect any decision made by Hamas.

invalidname 2y ago
> > Right now all pro-Palestinian demonstrations are (intentionally or not) pro Hamas. > > I disagree. If you think that Israel is conducting war crimes in Gaza against Palestine civilians in its retaliation against Hamas, as it has been accused of, then the protest is a request for Israel to do it without doing such war crimes. If that was the case you would have Israeli flags too. But Israelis who are for a two state solution were barred entry. Also the claims of war-crimes are problematic since the facts are so distorted with lies. A lot of the claims made by sources on the ground prove to be false after scrutiny. > I don't think you can say with any certainty how such protests affect any decision made by Hamas. It's a fact that they keep rejecting deals they said they would accept. Also he can: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/message-from-a-gazan-to-campus-protesters-youre-hurting-the-palestinian-cause-opinion/ar-AA1nFvT7 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/message-from-a-gazan-to...