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This isn't authoritative in the slightest, but having lived in China I got a general feeling that Chinese see themselves as a third world country that's kinda b

This isn't authoritative in the slightest, but having lived in China I got a general feeling that Chinese see themselves as a third world country that's kinda backwards and trying it's best to catch up. This was my sense talking to normal people that sell noodles and whatnot. There is a kinda separate ultra nationalist crowd that probably see things different, but they don't really represent the majority. I think landing on the Moon is symbolic of that zeitgeist of "catching up" with the West and Japan By contrast Indian colleagues seem extremely nationalistic - in a way that's a bit scary

dotnet00 2y ago
My impression as a not particularly nationalistic Indian is that most Indians also see India as a third world country that's kinda backwards and is trying to catch up, the problem is that they also get overly defensive when someone else implies something similar. I've had so many people turn from crticizing every aspect of the country to arguing that India has all the quality of life, freedom and opportunity of a western country over the tiniest of comments from me.
aurareturn 2y ago
When I visited China late last year, I spoke to the people there on what they thought about the US and the current trade war. Almost everyone I spoke to said that they think the US is a very advanced country and admire the US. They have no interest in changing or influencing the US to be more like themselves. They see this trade war as just "what politicians do". They seem to have an understanding of why China is doing what it needs to do and why the US is doing what it needs to do. It's nothing personal for them. In contrast, most Americans I've interacted with see China as more of an enemy, a sort of hateful resentment towards China, and ideologically incompatible with any of their own beliefs. It is much more personal for Americans. Americans want China to be more like themselves. It shows on HN comments as well.
- polishdude20 2y ago
  So this may be because Americans think of China as China's political system. When they think "Chinese" they think Xi Jingping. How many Chinese people think of America and go "Joe Biden"? I'd bet more of them think "Brad Pitt" or something along those lines. My point is, Americans may see Chinese people as their political system. While the Chinese see Americans as their culture: movies, tv, music etc.
  - aurareturn 2y ago
    In the past, on Hacker News, I've had to explain to commenters here that the level of anti-China propaganda in the US is magnitudes higher than any anti-American propaganda in China. Most don't believe me because they assume that China must be deploying the same level of anti-American propaganda as the US deploys the opposite. In 2024, if you go to a coffee shop in China, you'll very often hear American music. If you go to a movie theater in China, you'll very often see viewings for Hollywood movies. If you walk around the street, you'll see many clear American logos like Starbucks, McDonalds, KFC, Apple, Walmart, Ford, Microsoft, Tesla, etc. If you walk around the US, you won't see many Chinese brands, if at all. In fact, even if a Chinese company operates in the US, they have to hide the fact that they're a Chinese company. American cafes won't play Chinese music. AMC isn't showing Chinese movies. Furthermore, in a democracy, in order for politicians to win elections, they have to have a popular opinion. The US media has been non-stop anti-China for a long time now. Therefore, the popular opinion is "China bad". In order for politicians to win an election, they must be "China bad" as well. It's a cycle really. It's almost political suicide for a politician to even have a moderate view on China. It's also hard for any American media to have moderate views on China nowadays. To me, it's not surprising at all that Chinese people in China do not hate Americans the same way Americans hate the Chinese. On Hacker News comments, I've been accused of being paid by the CCP more times than I can remember just because I'm not automatically "China bad".
    - ElevenLathe 2y ago
      I think its more normal to have a "moderate view on China" than you would assume if you only interact with other people online, or via reading newspapers. Normal Americans don't even see their own government as being their business (with good reason, since democratic inputs are not connected to governmental decision-making), let alone some country on the other side of the world where they'll never go, or likely even meet someone from. I suspect the modal view on China among Americans is just nothing -- they've never even thought about it. We'll never get a poll that confirms this because asking the question at all clouds the answer.
- bllguo 2y ago
  yes, there is a widespread awareness that this is all realpolitik. in the western public, everything is a moral struggle between good and evil, where the west is the good guy de facto to add on to this - far more chinese people visit the west than the other way around. many study english. there is significantly greater understanding of their counterpart's systems in china than in the US or europe. the US has trouble recruiting people who are even literate in mandarin, FFS, to say nothing about familiarity with the culture (even more incredibly, nobody questions reporting or analysis on china produced by these illiterate people!)
- pennomi 2y ago
  It’s a lot easier for the second place player to want to cooperate with the first place than vice versa. The U.S. doesn’t want to let their control subside, and is willing to push back at nations who come too close.
bllguo 2y ago
in the major cities at least, there is significantly growing awareness atp that domestic infrastructure, technology, etc. is simply better than in the west. people meme about western cities as being comparable to villages however 1. they certainly do recognize areas where they are "behind". more interesting than technologies (ex. space, hn's new pet topic in semiconductors eyeroll, etc.) are things like recognizing mental health concerns and better working conditions 2. there are obviously still millions upon millions of people not in the major cities, for whom life has improved but clearly hasn't reached western standards i dont think the spirit of what youre saying is wrong, but the inferiority complex youre implying is fading fast
- luyu_wu 2y ago
  I've definetly seen this too, especially among younger kids raised in the cities!
- contrarian1234 2y ago
  That's super interesting! and I believe it. I hope it doesn't get replaced with a smug nationalism. I just generally saw a lot of curiosity about the way people do things in other nations. Maybe this was in part due to an inferiority complex, but I thought it was a very healthy amount of humility and willingness to learn from others (which is completely absent in the US)

dotnet00 2y ago

My impression as a not particularly nationalistic Indian is that most Indians also see India as a third world country that's kinda backwards and is trying to catch up, the problem is that they also get overly defensive when someone else implies something similar. I've had so many people turn from crticizing every aspect of the country to arguing that India has all the quality of life, freedom and opportunity of a western country over the tiniest of comments from me.

aurareturn 2y ago

When I visited China late last year, I spoke to the people there on what they thought about the US and the current trade war. Almost everyone I spoke to said that they think the US is a very advanced country and admire the US. They have no interest in changing or influencing the US to be more like themselves. They see this trade war as just "what politicians do". They seem to have an understanding of why China is doing what it needs to do and why the US is doing what it needs to do. It's nothing personal for them. In contrast, most Americans I've interacted with see China as more of an enemy, a sort of hateful resentment towards China, and ideologically incompatible with any of their own beliefs. It is much more personal for Americans. Americans want China to be more like themselves. It shows on HN comments as well.

polishdude20 2y ago
So this may be because Americans think of China as China's political system. When they think "Chinese" they think Xi Jingping. How many Chinese people think of America and go "Joe Biden"? I'd bet more of them think "Brad Pitt" or something along those lines. My point is, Americans may see Chinese people as their political system. While the Chinese see Americans as their culture: movies, tv, music etc.
- aurareturn 2y ago
  In the past, on Hacker News, I've had to explain to commenters here that the level of anti-China propaganda in the US is magnitudes higher than any anti-American propaganda in China. Most don't believe me because they assume that China must be deploying the same level of anti-American propaganda as the US deploys the opposite. In 2024, if you go to a coffee shop in China, you'll very often hear American music. If you go to a movie theater in China, you'll very often see viewings for Hollywood movies. If you walk around the street, you'll see many clear American logos like Starbucks, McDonalds, KFC, Apple, Walmart, Ford, Microsoft, Tesla, etc. If you walk around the US, you won't see many Chinese brands, if at all. In fact, even if a Chinese company operates in the US, they have to hide the fact that they're a Chinese company. American cafes won't play Chinese music. AMC isn't showing Chinese movies. Furthermore, in a democracy, in order for politicians to win elections, they have to have a popular opinion. The US media has been non-stop anti-China for a long time now. Therefore, the popular opinion is "China bad". In order for politicians to win an election, they must be "China bad" as well. It's a cycle really. It's almost political suicide for a politician to even have a moderate view on China. It's also hard for any American media to have moderate views on China nowadays. To me, it's not surprising at all that Chinese people in China do not hate Americans the same way Americans hate the Chinese. On Hacker News comments, I've been accused of being paid by the CCP more times than I can remember just because I'm not automatically "China bad".
  - ElevenLathe 2y ago
    I think its more normal to have a "moderate view on China" than you would assume if you only interact with other people online, or via reading newspapers. Normal Americans don't even see their own government as being their business (with good reason, since democratic inputs are not connected to governmental decision-making), let alone some country on the other side of the world where they'll never go, or likely even meet someone from. I suspect the modal view on China among Americans is just nothing -- they've never even thought about it. We'll never get a poll that confirms this because asking the question at all clouds the answer.
bllguo 2y ago
yes, there is a widespread awareness that this is all realpolitik. in the western public, everything is a moral struggle between good and evil, where the west is the good guy de facto to add on to this - far more chinese people visit the west than the other way around. many study english. there is significantly greater understanding of their counterpart's systems in china than in the US or europe. the US has trouble recruiting people who are even literate in mandarin, FFS, to say nothing about familiarity with the culture (even more incredibly, nobody questions reporting or analysis on china produced by these illiterate people!)
pennomi 2y ago
It’s a lot easier for the second place player to want to cooperate with the first place than vice versa. The U.S. doesn’t want to let their control subside, and is willing to push back at nations who come too close.

bllguo 2y ago

in the major cities at least, there is significantly growing awareness atp that domestic infrastructure, technology, etc. is simply better than in the west. people meme about western cities as being comparable to villages however 1. they certainly do recognize areas where they are "behind". more interesting than technologies (ex. space, hn's new pet topic in semiconductors eyeroll, etc.) are things like recognizing mental health concerns and better working conditions 2. there are obviously still millions upon millions of people not in the major cities, for whom life has improved but clearly hasn't reached western standards i dont think the spirit of what youre saying is wrong, but the inferiority complex youre implying is fading fast

luyu_wu 2y ago
I've definetly seen this too, especially among younger kids raised in the cities!
contrarian1234 2y ago
That's super interesting! and I believe it. I hope it doesn't get replaced with a smug nationalism. I just generally saw a lot of curiosity about the way people do things in other nations. Maybe this was in part due to an inferiority complex, but I thought it was a very healthy amount of humility and willingness to learn from others (which is completely absent in the US)