5 ms·

This actually has significant practical importance, because it is hoped that using this transition of the thorium nucleus it will be possible to build atomic cl

This actually has significant practical importance, because it is hoped that using this transition of the thorium nucleus it will be possible to build atomic clocks even better than those using transitions in the spectra of ions or neutral atoms, because the energy levels of the nucleus are less sensitive to any external influences. While in the best atomic clocks one must use single ions held in electromagnetic traps or a small number of neutral atoms held in an optical lattice with lasers, in both cases in vacuum, because the ions or neutral atoms must not be close to each other, to avoid influences, with thorium 229 it is hoped that a simple solid crystal can be used, because the nuclei will not influence each other. The ability to use a solid crystal not only simplifies a lot the construction of the atomic clock, but it should enable the use of a greater number of nuclei than the number of ions or atoms used in the current atomic clocks, which would increase the signal to noise ratio, which would require shorter averaging times than today, when the best atomic clocks require averaging over many hours or days for reaching their limits in accuracy, making them useless for the measurement of short time intervals (except for removing the drift caused by aging of whatever clocks are used for short times).

WitCanStain 3y ago
What could we do with more accurate atomic clocks that we cannot do with current ones?
- defrost 3y ago
  For interest, Precision Vs Accuracy, Atomic Clocks Vs Sapphire Oscillator https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28232645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28232645 Detecting gravity waves with large laser triangles required a few advances in technology - precision clocks was one. Not so long ago had you asked your question the answer would have been "detect gravity waves".
- fanf2 3y ago
  Most units of measurement are derived from the second, so the more precise our frequency standards, the more precise everything else can be. Things like interferometry and spectroscopy depend directly on very precise frequency standards.
- btilly 3y ago
  The article points to a use I wouldn't have thought of. The deeper you go into a gravitational field, the slower time goes. Therefore comparing clocks in different places gives a way to measure gravity. These clocks could be sufficiently precise to find mineral deposits underground from their gravity signature.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > These clocks could be sufficiently precise to find mineral deposits underground from their gravity signature. We've been doing that since the 1960s at least with such things as the LaCoste & Romberg gravimeter (1936). You can download, see online the "Geoid" https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/nmah_865074 https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/nmah_865074 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoid Magnetic anomalies also highlight inteesting places for minerals, the issue with both magnetic and gravity fields variations lies with determining the "true" depth to target (medium sized shallow target, or massive deep taget?) which is known as an inversion problem.
    - btilly 3y ago
      Yes, but a better clock means more precise measurements, means we can locate smaller masses to higher precision.
      - defrost 3y ago
        Does it? Inversion is rarely unique, and it's not due to the precision with which the field is measured. https://earthsciences.anu.edu.au/study/student-projects/novel-approaches-geophysical-inversion https://earthsciences.anu.edu.au/study/student-projects/nove... https://inside.mines.edu/~rsnieder/snieder_trampert_00.pdf https://inside.mines.edu/~rsnieder/snieder_trampert_00.pdf Epilogue: Linear inverse problem theory is an extremely powerful tool for solving inverse problems. Much of the information that we currently have on the Earth’s interior is based on linear inverse problems Despite the success of linear inverse theory, one should be aware that for many practical problems our ability to solve inverse problems is largely confined to the estimation problem.
denton-scratch 3y ago
> clocks even better than those using transitions in the spectra of ions or neutral atoms I'd be interested to know how much more accurate a nuclear-state-transition clock might be than a conventional Caesium or Rubidium clock. TFA seems to make the point that a nuclear clock would be more resistant to external influences, such as EM radiation, than an atomic clock, and so could be used in experiments where such influences might introduce unwanted uncertainty. But I'd like to know what the claim for greater accuracy is based on, rather than simply greater reliability.
- wbl 3y ago
  You have the math turned around. Because the nuclear resonance is much more stable and high frequency the Q factor and accuracy of the measurement is higher. With a cesium or rubidium clock it's very difficult to control all the influences on how tightly the nominal resonance is achieved and the Q while impressive is a bit less. There are some real challenges in realization: this will take optical combs and all sorts of other stuff to really take advantage of.
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    They also point out that because the thorium atoms can be embedded in a solid, and have motion << the wavelength of the radiation, the emission and absorption are largely recoil-free. This eliminates Doppler broadening. What broadening there could be was below the resolution of their pump beam.

WitCanStain 3y ago

What could we do with more accurate atomic clocks that we cannot do with current ones?

defrost 3y ago
For interest, Precision Vs Accuracy, Atomic Clocks Vs Sapphire Oscillator https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28232645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28232645 Detecting gravity waves with large laser triangles required a few advances in technology - precision clocks was one. Not so long ago had you asked your question the answer would have been "detect gravity waves".
fanf2 3y ago
Most units of measurement are derived from the second, so the more precise our frequency standards, the more precise everything else can be. Things like interferometry and spectroscopy depend directly on very precise frequency standards.
btilly 3y ago
The article points to a use I wouldn't have thought of. The deeper you go into a gravitational field, the slower time goes. Therefore comparing clocks in different places gives a way to measure gravity. These clocks could be sufficiently precise to find mineral deposits underground from their gravity signature.
- defrost 3y ago
  > These clocks could be sufficiently precise to find mineral deposits underground from their gravity signature. We've been doing that since the 1960s at least with such things as the LaCoste & Romberg gravimeter (1936). You can download, see online the "Geoid" https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/nmah_865074 https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/nmah_865074 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoid Magnetic anomalies also highlight inteesting places for minerals, the issue with both magnetic and gravity fields variations lies with determining the "true" depth to target (medium sized shallow target, or massive deep taget?) which is known as an inversion problem.
  - btilly 3y ago
    Yes, but a better clock means more precise measurements, means we can locate smaller masses to higher precision.
    - defrost 3y ago
      Does it? Inversion is rarely unique, and it's not due to the precision with which the field is measured. https://earthsciences.anu.edu.au/study/student-projects/novel-approaches-geophysical-inversion https://earthsciences.anu.edu.au/study/student-projects/nove... https://inside.mines.edu/~rsnieder/snieder_trampert_00.pdf https://inside.mines.edu/~rsnieder/snieder_trampert_00.pdf Epilogue: Linear inverse problem theory is an extremely powerful tool for solving inverse problems. Much of the information that we currently have on the Earth’s interior is based on linear inverse problems Despite the success of linear inverse theory, one should be aware that for many practical problems our ability to solve inverse problems is largely confined to the estimation problem.

denton-scratch 3y ago

> clocks even better than those using transitions in the spectra of ions or neutral atoms I'd be interested to know how much more accurate a nuclear-state-transition clock might be than a conventional Caesium or Rubidium clock. TFA seems to make the point that a nuclear clock would be more resistant to external influences, such as EM radiation, than an atomic clock, and so could be used in experiments where such influences might introduce unwanted uncertainty. But I'd like to know what the claim for greater accuracy is based on, rather than simply greater reliability.

wbl 3y ago
You have the math turned around. Because the nuclear resonance is much more stable and high frequency the Q factor and accuracy of the measurement is higher. With a cesium or rubidium clock it's very difficult to control all the influences on how tightly the nominal resonance is achieved and the Q while impressive is a bit less. There are some real challenges in realization: this will take optical combs and all sorts of other stuff to really take advantage of.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  They also point out that because the thorium atoms can be embedded in a solid, and have motion << the wavelength of the radiation, the emission and absorption are largely recoil-free. This eliminates Doppler broadening. What broadening there could be was below the resolution of their pump beam.