5 ms·

Retroactive hate crime bill in Canada [Online Harms Bill C-63]

41 points by sfmz 2y ago

everdrive 2y ago
A non-twitter link, and the bill itself: https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-63/first-reading https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-63/first-r...
- hifromwork 2y ago
  Also the twitter is just a link to the real article: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/even-orwells-thought-police-didnt-go-as-far-as-trudeau/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/even-orwells-thought-pol...
  - Traubenfuchs 2y ago
    We can do even better: https://archive.is/HjkWD https://archive.is/HjkWD
- neilv 2y ago
  Thanks. The Twitter post itself seemed poor, but the topic seems important. Maybe the HN post should be changed to link either the actual bill or a proper journalistic treatment of it.
YugyDugan 2y ago
[flagged]
kingspact 2y ago
This even extends to "hate" that people unrelated to you, who have a vaguely similar skin tone committed. Or surely must have.
- gruez 2y ago
  Which part of the bill says that?
newsclues 2y ago
[flagged]
neglesaks 2y ago
An absolute legal abomination. Even before considering its insane punishments, it's at odds with the liberal-democratic foundational principle that you cannot legislate retroactively.
- voisin 2y ago
  Our government just changed capital gains inclusions affecting assets purchased in the past on the basis of financial projections which certainly included tax expectations. Moreover they made the inclusion rate different if it is held in a corporations or out of a corporation, so even the structure is now retroactively being affected.
0xbadc0de5 2y ago
The Canadian government lost their moral authority to govern long ago.
FpUser 2y ago
I suspect that people introducing and supporting such bills secretly attend education classes in China and Russia. And it is all of course to "save the children (TM)"
hagbard_c 2y ago
Canada might as well change its name to The People's Republic of Trudeaunia the way they're going down the path of adopting PRC-inspired policies. Justin Trudeau is known for admiring the power offered by a Chinese-style dictatorship [1] and seems to be intent on pointing Canada in the same direction. I hope that Trudeau's successor - Pierre Poilievre seems to be a likely candidate - not only puts the brakes on these developments but actually turns them around but time will tell if this is the case. Politicians like power and Poliviere is a politician just like all the others. [1] There is a level of admiration I actually have for China because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime…having a dictatorship where you can do whatever you wanted, that I find quite interesting - https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-under-fire-for-expressing-admiration-for-china-s-basic-dictatorship-1.1535116 https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-under-fire-for-expre...
- gruez 2y ago
  I thought this was some out of context quote, but I checked the article and it's not that much better > Speaking to a sold-out crowd of women, Trudeau was responding to a question about which nation’s administration he most admired. > The Liberal leader said: “There’s a level of admiration I actually have for China because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime and say, ‘We need to go green … we need to start investing in solar.’” His explanation also seems... kinda bad > Trudeau took to social media Friday to explain himself. >“I pointed out that globally, Canada is up against big countries (China, for one) that can address some major issues quickly,” he wrote on Twitter. >“It’s ridiculous for anyone to suggest that I of all people would trade our rights and freedoms for any other system of (government).” The original question was "which nation’s administration he most admired". Unless there was a detour that the ctvnews.ca article and himself omitted, it'd be weird to use that as a tangent to talk about how "Canada is up against big countries [...]".
neilv 2y ago
As a non-lawyer, I skimmed up through section 95 of https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-63/first-reading https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-63/first-r... , and my initial suspicion is that I probably wouldn't want to operate an affected startup in Canada. AFAICT from quick skim, the burdens on startup are onerous, the investigatory powers are invasive (and rife for abuse), and Commission orders seem to carry weight of the courts without being bound by the usual process of the courts. Implicitly, I'm imagining complying in good faith, so the above initial impression was formed before I got to the penalties. Which penalties, AFAICT, seem to be an existential threat for startups, yet consciously capped to protect our larger competitors: > 101 The maximum penalty for a violation is not more than 6% of the gross global revenue of the person that is believed to have committed the violation or $10 million, whichever is greater.
- tremon 2y ago
  consciously capped to protect our larger competitors No -- is says whichever is greater, not smaller. So it's capped at $10M unless your GGR is more than $166M, then the cap is higher.
  - neilv 2y ago
    > No -- is says whichever is greater, not smaller. So it's capped at $10M unless your GGR is more than $166M, then the cap is higher. I don't understand the correction. Here's my groggy Monday morning thinking... If they only said the cap was 6%, without the $10M part, then a small startup could probably survive that. But by making it the greater of 6% or $10M, that can kill small startups, but remain capped to protect large companies. Unless small startups are exempt?
    - tremon 2y ago
      Ah, I see your point. Can't comment on the sanity of the Canadian judicial system, but do keep in mind that they're talking about maximum fines, not minimum. There's nothing to suggest that small startups would receive a company-ending fine here.
tivert 2y ago
I hope the government passes this and Justin Trudeau defeats his political foes with hate crime prosecutions.
vaadu 2y ago
The Atlantic council is holding Trudeau's strings?

41 points by sfmz 2y ago

A non-twitter link, and the bill itself: https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-63/first-reading https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-63/first-r...

hifromwork 2y ago
Also the twitter is just a link to the real article: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/even-orwells-thought-police-didnt-go-as-far-as-trudeau/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/even-orwells-thought-pol...
- Traubenfuchs 2y ago
  We can do even better: https://archive.is/HjkWD https://archive.is/HjkWD
neilv 2y ago
Thanks. The Twitter post itself seemed poor, but the topic seems important. Maybe the HN post should be changed to link either the actual bill or a proper journalistic treatment of it.

YugyDugan 2y ago

[flagged]

kingspact 2y ago

This even extends to "hate" that people unrelated to you, who have a vaguely similar skin tone committed. Or surely must have.

gruez 2y ago
Which part of the bill says that?

newsclues 2y ago

[flagged]

neglesaks 2y ago

An absolute legal abomination. Even before considering its insane punishments, it's at odds with the liberal-democratic foundational principle that you cannot legislate retroactively.

voisin 2y ago
Our government just changed capital gains inclusions affecting assets purchased in the past on the basis of financial projections which certainly included tax expectations. Moreover they made the inclusion rate different if it is held in a corporations or out of a corporation, so even the structure is now retroactively being affected.

0xbadc0de5 2y ago

The Canadian government lost their moral authority to govern long ago.

FpUser 2y ago

I suspect that people introducing and supporting such bills secretly attend education classes in China and Russia. And it is all of course to "save the children (TM)"

hagbard_c 2y ago

Canada might as well change its name to The People's Republic of Trudeaunia the way they're going down the path of adopting PRC-inspired policies. Justin Trudeau is known for admiring the power offered by a Chinese-style dictatorship [1] and seems to be intent on pointing Canada in the same direction. I hope that Trudeau's successor - Pierre Poilievre seems to be a likely candidate - not only puts the brakes on these developments but actually turns them around but time will tell if this is the case. Politicians like power and Poliviere is a politician just like all the others. [1] There is a level of admiration I actually have for China because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime…having a dictatorship where you can do whatever you wanted, that I find quite interesting - https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-under-fire-for-expressing-admiration-for-china-s-basic-dictatorship-1.1535116 https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-under-fire-for-expre...

gruez 2y ago
I thought this was some out of context quote, but I checked the article and it's not that much better > Speaking to a sold-out crowd of women, Trudeau was responding to a question about which nation’s administration he most admired. > The Liberal leader said: “There’s a level of admiration I actually have for China because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime and say, ‘We need to go green … we need to start investing in solar.’” His explanation also seems... kinda bad > Trudeau took to social media Friday to explain himself. >“I pointed out that globally, Canada is up against big countries (China, for one) that can address some major issues quickly,” he wrote on Twitter. >“It’s ridiculous for anyone to suggest that I of all people would trade our rights and freedoms for any other system of (government).” The original question was "which nation’s administration he most admired". Unless there was a detour that the ctvnews.ca article and himself omitted, it'd be weird to use that as a tangent to talk about how "Canada is up against big countries [...]".

neilv 2y ago

As a non-lawyer, I skimmed up through section 95 of https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-63/first-reading https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/bill/C-63/first-r... , and my initial suspicion is that I probably wouldn't want to operate an affected startup in Canada. AFAICT from quick skim, the burdens on startup are onerous, the investigatory powers are invasive (and rife for abuse), and Commission orders seem to carry weight of the courts without being bound by the usual process of the courts. Implicitly, I'm imagining complying in good faith, so the above initial impression was formed before I got to the penalties. Which penalties, AFAICT, seem to be an existential threat for startups, yet consciously capped to protect our larger competitors: > 101 The maximum penalty for a violation is not more than 6% of the gross global revenue of the person that is believed to have committed the violation or $10 million, whichever is greater.

tremon 2y ago
consciously capped to protect our larger competitors No -- is says whichever is greater, not smaller. So it's capped at $10M unless your GGR is more than $166M, then the cap is higher.
- neilv 2y ago
  > No -- is says whichever is greater, not smaller. So it's capped at $10M unless your GGR is more than $166M, then the cap is higher. I don't understand the correction. Here's my groggy Monday morning thinking... If they only said the cap was 6%, without the $10M part, then a small startup could probably survive that. But by making it the greater of 6% or $10M, that can kill small startups, but remain capped to protect large companies. Unless small startups are exempt?
  - tremon 2y ago
    Ah, I see your point. Can't comment on the sanity of the Canadian judicial system, but do keep in mind that they're talking about maximum fines, not minimum. There's nothing to suggest that small startups would receive a company-ending fine here.

tivert 2y ago

I hope the government passes this and Justin Trudeau defeats his political foes with hate crime prosecutions.

vaadu 2y ago

The Atlantic council is holding Trudeau's strings?