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I have the opposing view. Ivy league has spread anti-Israel propaganda and misinformation for decades while taking Qatari money. It got so deep a lot of Jews wi

I have the opposing view. Ivy league has spread anti-Israel propaganda and misinformation for decades while taking Qatari money. It got so deep a lot of Jews within Academia have a very distorted view of history and accept various academic claims (e.g. equating Israel with colonialism) as fact rather than as an academic exercise. I used to think this was grandstanding by the right, but the delusional letters sent by the Ivy league groups after Oct 7th have really opened my eyes on this. Adding to that, Ivy league leaders showed a huge double standard when it comes to antisemitism vs. other forms of racism/discrimination. If Israel had that much power these things would stop. There's clear misinformation on this subject. Students (even Jewish students) are walking around with Hamas symbols. An organization whose stated purpose is the destruction of a sovereign state. An organization who literally sabotaged the attempt we had to form a Palestinian state. An organization that is still keeping US citizens as hostages including women and children. If it was any country other than Israel these people would be banned from public life and maybe jailed for supporting terror. The problem is that Americans such as yourself, are making the mistake of assuming you understand. You don't: https://twitter.com/ABZayed/status/1784565074964664531 https://twitter.com/ABZayed/status/1784565074964664531 These extremists are psychopaths, they are not people who can be reasoned with. Example: recently the son of the Hamas leader was killed in the conflict. He posted a picture of him delivering the news to his wife and they're both smiling in the picture. They're either pretending or are literally happy their son died. The most basic normal thing about people should be the desire to protect our children. It's true for most Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindu etc. It should be universal. These people don't even abide by that basic rule. They are HAPPY to sacrifice their own children not for freedom (Israel offered a full Palestinian state before) but for a holy war that would engulf the earth. The fact that US students are wearing their colors is astoundingly ignorant and prolongs the war. Another proof. Hamas was offered a deal that would stop the war. Israel wants its hostages back. They can stop that right away by accepting the deal. But when they see the demonstrations in the US and Europe they won't accept the deal to further damage Israels standing.

jhanschoo 2y ago
> Students (even Jewish students) are walking around with Hamas symbols. Can you substantiate this claim with evidence; e.g. a photo of a student bearing a Hamas (not Palestine) symbol on campus?
- invalidname 2y ago
  Pretty easy to find with a bit of Google e.g.: https://img.mako.co.il/2024/04/23/hamaslogo2304111_autoOrient_i.jpg https://img.mako.co.il/2024/04/23/hamaslogo2304111_autoOrien... There's also videos online of parades in Michigan calling anti-American slogans. I'm very much to the left but this doesn't mean that everything on the fox is "fake news".
  - jhanschoo 2y ago
    Thanks; images of that guy is the only image I can find on Google for "student" "campus" "hamas symbol", and "student" "campus" "hamas flag". If you agree that it is relatively difficult, would the relative paucity of symbols compared to the Palastinian symbols and flags and slogans be enough to justify calling these protests as pro-Hamas rather than pro-Palestinian? Why do you suppose the students do not more openly brandish Hanas symbols, if the media and government already seem understand them as such?
    - invalidname 2y ago
      Photo tagging for these kinds of things isn't great. But there's plenty of people with green headbands in news photos/videos I've seen over the past couple of months. There was a video with a woman walking around carrying a sign with a photo of a mass murderer with a fake name (can't find it at the moment), she had no idea who he was or what he did. The person that gave her the sign told her a fake story, it was unclear if he knew. The letters sent by Ivy leagues right after Oct 7th are probably the most damning. Letters that justified the massacre as "valid resistance" yet they later felt free to condemn Israels campaign to return the kidnapped civilians. A serious double standard. There's plenty of videos with people chanting "river to the sea" (including a US congresswoman) which is the slogan of the Hamas that calls for the destruction of Israel. There's stuff like this: https://www.makorrishon.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/1713469209-750x375.jpg https://www.makorrishon.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/171... Which justifies October 7th. Again, you can't justify violence and then condemn the result of said violence. Especially not when the Hamas is still holding hostages and refusing compromise. Right now all pro-Palestinian demonstrations are (intentionally or not) pro Hamas. Hamas hijacked the discussion and polluted it. They are encouraged by these demonstrations and see them as a sign of Israels imminent demise. That's why they're refusing the deals on the table and the war won't end. These demonstrations will also have a far worse impact. Trump is using this to sow doubt in swing states. He explicitly avoids talking about Israel and might win as a result (e.g. as Nixon won in a landslide during the height of anti-Vietnam war protests). This would be terrible all around. That would mean Ukraine would be at risk. The extremist Israeli government would have no one holding it back. As ineffective as Biden might seem to the casual observer, I can only imagine what Bibi would do without him.
DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
On the one hand, you complain about Jewish students protesting against Israel, but on the other hand, you call the protests antisemitic. The protests are directed against Israel and its war in Gaza, not against Jews, and as you yourself acknowledge, many Jews agree with the protests. > Hamas was offered a deal that would stop the war. Israel wants its hostages back. They can stop that right away by accepting the deal. Actually, the sticking point is that Israel refuses to end the war in exchange for a hostage swap. Hamas has been offering a hostage swap since October 2023, but Israel says they'll only accept a short-term truce (of a few weeks), after which they'll continue the war. > Israel offered a full Palestinian state before Not really. Israel has always demanded a high degree of control over any possible Palestinian state, such as control over the state's borders, the right to station the IDF inside the Palestinian state, the right to veto any foreign alliances Palestine might enter into, and control over resources such as water and the electromagnetic spectrum. Israel additionally demands that the state be fully demilitarized, and demands important parts of the territory that the Palestinians claim, such as East Jerusalem, settlements in the West Bank and the Jordan River Valley. All this adds up to much less than a real, sovereign state. In fact, Israeli Prime Minister Rabin, who is remembered as the guy who pushed for the two-state solution in Israel, himself said that the Palestinians would only get an "entity," not a "state."
- invalidname 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
    > Jews can be mislead and effectively help boast rhetoric that leads to antisemitism just like everyone. And I assume everyone who doesn't agree with you is just misled? The Israelis use the accusation of antisemitism to try to shut up critics. At the same time, Israel allies itself with the biggest antisemites all around the world. In Europe, Israel has been cozying up with all sorts of antisemitic movements, like Hungarian fascists under Orban, the fascistic AfD party in Germany, and the fascistic Front National (and its successor party). In the US, the congresswoman leading the supposed anti-antisemitism campaign, Elise Stefanik, has herself espoused the Great Replacement Theory, which is a classic antisemitic conspiracy theory. The reason why Israel allies itself with antisemites in the West is that antisemites also tend to hate Muslims, so Israel can find common ground with them on that point. In the US, many of the antisemites Israel allies itself with are Christian fundamentalists, who support Israel because it fits into their apocalyptic end-times beliefs. But then when actual Jewish Americans go and protest against Israel's killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians, the same people who ally themselves with Stefanik and company call those Jewish protesters antisemitic. > The deal for a Palestinian state was part of Oslo and would have allowed pretty much everything the moderates wanted including a part of Jerusalem You're just wrong here. The major problem with Oslo was that it did not in any way guarantee the creation of a Palestinian state. The whole implicit promise of Oslo was that the Palestinians would get a sovereign state, but that wasn't explicitly spelled out anywhere in the text, and the Israelis never committed to it. The Palestinians made massive concessions when they signed the Oslo Accords. They recognized the state of Israel. They conceded everything beyond the Green Line, which constitutes 78% of Palestine. They only asked for the remaining 22%. But after they made those huge, historic concessions, the Israelis began trying to negotiate over everything that was left. We want this settlement. We want that settlement. We want control over most of East Jerusalem. We want to station troops in the Palestinian state. We want to control the eastern borders with Jordan. And on and on. The reason the Israelis made these demands was simple: they're in the dominant position, and nobody is going to force them to concede anything. The US is the one outside party that could actually pressure the Israelis to accept the Palestinians' reasonable offer of peace based on the 1967 lines, but the US is hopelessly pro-Israel. > The demand of full demilitarization didn't exist back when the offer is made. The Israelis have always demanded Palestinian demilitarization, as well as the right of the Israeli military to operate inside the future Palestinian state. > E.g. pro-Palestinian protests help create a message that the Hamas sees as support to it. That means most Palestinians will fall back into the loop of bad leadership that keeps landing them to a worse positions than they were before. The major problem is just the opposite. The Israelis have felt for the last 20 years that they can do anything to the Palestinians and ignore the Palestinians' demands for basic rights and a state of their own. The Israelis believe there will be no consequences, because the Palestinians are weak. October 7th was a complete aberration, the first time in 20 years that Israelis have suffered at all because of the occupation. Left to their own devices, the Israelis would just continue to expand settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, would never concede to the creation of a Palestinian state, and might even try to expel the Palestinians at some future date. Without outside pressure, there will never be an end to the conflict, except perhaps for a final expulsion of the Palestinians.
racional 2y ago
I have the opposing view. Ivy league has spread anti-Israel propaganda and misinformation for decades while taking Qatari money. It got so deep a lot of Jews within Academia have a very distorted view of history and accept various academic claims (e.g. equating Israel with colonialism) as fact rather than as an academic exercise. It sounds like your view of these people is that they don't really have agency over their own beliefs, and are simply passively manipulated by dark, outside forces.

jhanschoo 2y ago

> Students (even Jewish students) are walking around with Hamas symbols. Can you substantiate this claim with evidence; e.g. a photo of a student bearing a Hamas (not Palestine) symbol on campus?

invalidname 2y ago
Pretty easy to find with a bit of Google e.g.: https://img.mako.co.il/2024/04/23/hamaslogo2304111_autoOrient_i.jpg https://img.mako.co.il/2024/04/23/hamaslogo2304111_autoOrien... There's also videos online of parades in Michigan calling anti-American slogans. I'm very much to the left but this doesn't mean that everything on the fox is "fake news".
- jhanschoo 2y ago
  Thanks; images of that guy is the only image I can find on Google for "student" "campus" "hamas symbol", and "student" "campus" "hamas flag". If you agree that it is relatively difficult, would the relative paucity of symbols compared to the Palastinian symbols and flags and slogans be enough to justify calling these protests as pro-Hamas rather than pro-Palestinian? Why do you suppose the students do not more openly brandish Hanas symbols, if the media and government already seem understand them as such?
  - invalidname 2y ago
    Photo tagging for these kinds of things isn't great. But there's plenty of people with green headbands in news photos/videos I've seen over the past couple of months. There was a video with a woman walking around carrying a sign with a photo of a mass murderer with a fake name (can't find it at the moment), she had no idea who he was or what he did. The person that gave her the sign told her a fake story, it was unclear if he knew. The letters sent by Ivy leagues right after Oct 7th are probably the most damning. Letters that justified the massacre as "valid resistance" yet they later felt free to condemn Israels campaign to return the kidnapped civilians. A serious double standard. There's plenty of videos with people chanting "river to the sea" (including a US congresswoman) which is the slogan of the Hamas that calls for the destruction of Israel. There's stuff like this: https://www.makorrishon.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/1713469209-750x375.jpg https://www.makorrishon.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/171... Which justifies October 7th. Again, you can't justify violence and then condemn the result of said violence. Especially not when the Hamas is still holding hostages and refusing compromise. Right now all pro-Palestinian demonstrations are (intentionally or not) pro Hamas. Hamas hijacked the discussion and polluted it. They are encouraged by these demonstrations and see them as a sign of Israels imminent demise. That's why they're refusing the deals on the table and the war won't end. These demonstrations will also have a far worse impact. Trump is using this to sow doubt in swing states. He explicitly avoids talking about Israel and might win as a result (e.g. as Nixon won in a landslide during the height of anti-Vietnam war protests). This would be terrible all around. That would mean Ukraine would be at risk. The extremist Israeli government would have no one holding it back. As ineffective as Biden might seem to the casual observer, I can only imagine what Bibi would do without him.

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago

On the one hand, you complain about Jewish students protesting against Israel, but on the other hand, you call the protests antisemitic. The protests are directed against Israel and its war in Gaza, not against Jews, and as you yourself acknowledge, many Jews agree with the protests. > Hamas was offered a deal that would stop the war. Israel wants its hostages back. They can stop that right away by accepting the deal. Actually, the sticking point is that Israel refuses to end the war in exchange for a hostage swap. Hamas has been offering a hostage swap since October 2023, but Israel says they'll only accept a short-term truce (of a few weeks), after which they'll continue the war. > Israel offered a full Palestinian state before Not really. Israel has always demanded a high degree of control over any possible Palestinian state, such as control over the state's borders, the right to station the IDF inside the Palestinian state, the right to veto any foreign alliances Palestine might enter into, and control over resources such as water and the electromagnetic spectrum. Israel additionally demands that the state be fully demilitarized, and demands important parts of the territory that the Palestinians claim, such as East Jerusalem, settlements in the West Bank and the Jordan River Valley. All this adds up to much less than a real, sovereign state. In fact, Israeli Prime Minister Rabin, who is remembered as the guy who pushed for the two-state solution in Israel, himself said that the Palestinians would only get an "entity," not a "state."

invalidname 2y ago
[flagged]
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  > Jews can be mislead and effectively help boast rhetoric that leads to antisemitism just like everyone. And I assume everyone who doesn't agree with you is just misled? The Israelis use the accusation of antisemitism to try to shut up critics. At the same time, Israel allies itself with the biggest antisemites all around the world. In Europe, Israel has been cozying up with all sorts of antisemitic movements, like Hungarian fascists under Orban, the fascistic AfD party in Germany, and the fascistic Front National (and its successor party). In the US, the congresswoman leading the supposed anti-antisemitism campaign, Elise Stefanik, has herself espoused the Great Replacement Theory, which is a classic antisemitic conspiracy theory. The reason why Israel allies itself with antisemites in the West is that antisemites also tend to hate Muslims, so Israel can find common ground with them on that point. In the US, many of the antisemites Israel allies itself with are Christian fundamentalists, who support Israel because it fits into their apocalyptic end-times beliefs. But then when actual Jewish Americans go and protest against Israel's killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians, the same people who ally themselves with Stefanik and company call those Jewish protesters antisemitic. > The deal for a Palestinian state was part of Oslo and would have allowed pretty much everything the moderates wanted including a part of Jerusalem You're just wrong here. The major problem with Oslo was that it did not in any way guarantee the creation of a Palestinian state. The whole implicit promise of Oslo was that the Palestinians would get a sovereign state, but that wasn't explicitly spelled out anywhere in the text, and the Israelis never committed to it. The Palestinians made massive concessions when they signed the Oslo Accords. They recognized the state of Israel. They conceded everything beyond the Green Line, which constitutes 78% of Palestine. They only asked for the remaining 22%. But after they made those huge, historic concessions, the Israelis began trying to negotiate over everything that was left. We want this settlement. We want that settlement. We want control over most of East Jerusalem. We want to station troops in the Palestinian state. We want to control the eastern borders with Jordan. And on and on. The reason the Israelis made these demands was simple: they're in the dominant position, and nobody is going to force them to concede anything. The US is the one outside party that could actually pressure the Israelis to accept the Palestinians' reasonable offer of peace based on the 1967 lines, but the US is hopelessly pro-Israel. > The demand of full demilitarization didn't exist back when the offer is made. The Israelis have always demanded Palestinian demilitarization, as well as the right of the Israeli military to operate inside the future Palestinian state. > E.g. pro-Palestinian protests help create a message that the Hamas sees as support to it. That means most Palestinians will fall back into the loop of bad leadership that keeps landing them to a worse positions than they were before. The major problem is just the opposite. The Israelis have felt for the last 20 years that they can do anything to the Palestinians and ignore the Palestinians' demands for basic rights and a state of their own. The Israelis believe there will be no consequences, because the Palestinians are weak. October 7th was a complete aberration, the first time in 20 years that Israelis have suffered at all because of the occupation. Left to their own devices, the Israelis would just continue to expand settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, would never concede to the creation of a Palestinian state, and might even try to expel the Palestinians at some future date. Without outside pressure, there will never be an end to the conflict, except perhaps for a final expulsion of the Palestinians.

racional 2y ago