3 ms·

I think I agree with Nate’s advice (skip the Ivies, go to a good state school) but I don’t agree with the reasons why. I don’t think elite private colleges are

I think I agree with Nate’s advice (skip the Ivies, go to a good state school) but I don’t agree with the reasons why. I don’t think elite private colleges are losing esteem at all (the recent noise about pro-Palestinian protests will be forgotten five minutes after they stop, just like all the other campus protest movements in decades past, this isn’t new!), I just think the economic argument is getting harder and harder to make.

anothernewdude 3y ago
I think they are losing esteem, but some silly protests aren't why. The selection process itself is deeply, deeply flawed and interacts poorly with incentives for education. Feedback on performance is muddled up with the effects of networking with monied up people. Not much of this is positive. Their ability to hire and the amount of money they have still is, I suppose. Assuming those are focused on teaching, though, which I doubt.
- afavour 3y ago
  Networking with monied people is still a perk for sure. But I wonder (jokingly but not completely jokingly) if you’d be better off spending 1/10 of the cost going to Burning Man every year with index cards of rich inheritees to hunt down.
  - bsder 3y ago
    Maybe not Burning Man, but probably Coachella and SXSW.
- DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
  The selection process at most highly competitive schools is flawed, but the Ivy League universities still get the best students, in general.
  - anothernewdude 3y ago
    And if you get the best students, then do you need to bother to provide the best education? If your students are going to achieve good results anyway? Might the quality of that education become suspect, if it lacks incentives to improve, since the branding largely carries everything?
    - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
      The Ivy League schools don't necessarily have the best teachers. Professors are hired mainly based on their research output, not on teaching skills. However, if you go to an Ivy League school, you'll be surrounded by the best students, which makes a difference, and you will get other perks, like tutoring from graduate students (the university gives them housing in exchange). If you're in science, you'll also be able to do undergrad research in a top lab. Branding is a big deal, but these universities are legitimately great places to study.
hilux 3y ago
I get your point, but Ivies (and other rich private schools) offer dramatically better financial aid to "middle class" students than most state schools do. E.g. most students who qualify for aid would take on less debt to attend Stanford or an Ivy than to attend, say, UC Berkeley. Or pick some other state school, since Cal has had its share of protests.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Indeed, if they’re going to pay to build your future network and luck, take it.
- Aunche 3y ago
  If you can get into an Ivy, you can probably get at least a full tuition scholarship for most in state universities.
  - hilux 3y ago
    That's not true at all. Most state schools don't have that kind of money to hand out, and even if they did, tuition is less than half of the total annual cost.
deleted 3y ago
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smt88 3y ago
The closest campus protest movement to the current one was against the Vietnam War, and people didn't quickly forget it.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > closest campus protest movement to the current one was against the Vietnam War The Student Strike of 1970 was an order of magnitude larger than today's Gaza protests, 900+ campuses participating [1] versus around 50 [2]. It was also culturally accentuated by the Kent State shootings [3] and draft. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_strike_of_1970 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_strike_of_1970 [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-college-pro-palestine-protests-map/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-college-pro-palestin... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

anothernewdude 3y ago

I think they are losing esteem, but some silly protests aren't why. The selection process itself is deeply, deeply flawed and interacts poorly with incentives for education. Feedback on performance is muddled up with the effects of networking with monied up people. Not much of this is positive. Their ability to hire and the amount of money they have still is, I suppose. Assuming those are focused on teaching, though, which I doubt.

afavour 3y ago
Networking with monied people is still a perk for sure. But I wonder (jokingly but not completely jokingly) if you’d be better off spending 1/10 of the cost going to Burning Man every year with index cards of rich inheritees to hunt down.
- bsder 3y ago
  Maybe not Burning Man, but probably Coachella and SXSW.
DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
The selection process at most highly competitive schools is flawed, but the Ivy League universities still get the best students, in general.
- anothernewdude 3y ago
  And if you get the best students, then do you need to bother to provide the best education? If your students are going to achieve good results anyway? Might the quality of that education become suspect, if it lacks incentives to improve, since the branding largely carries everything?
  - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
    The Ivy League schools don't necessarily have the best teachers. Professors are hired mainly based on their research output, not on teaching skills. However, if you go to an Ivy League school, you'll be surrounded by the best students, which makes a difference, and you will get other perks, like tutoring from graduate students (the university gives them housing in exchange). If you're in science, you'll also be able to do undergrad research in a top lab. Branding is a big deal, but these universities are legitimately great places to study.

hilux 3y ago

I get your point, but Ivies (and other rich private schools) offer dramatically better financial aid to "middle class" students than most state schools do. E.g. most students who qualify for aid would take on less debt to attend Stanford or an Ivy than to attend, say, UC Berkeley. Or pick some other state school, since Cal has had its share of protests.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Indeed, if they’re going to pay to build your future network and luck, take it.
Aunche 3y ago
If you can get into an Ivy, you can probably get at least a full tuition scholarship for most in state universities.
- hilux 3y ago
  That's not true at all. Most state schools don't have that kind of money to hand out, and even if they did, tuition is less than half of the total annual cost.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

smt88 3y ago

The closest campus protest movement to the current one was against the Vietnam War, and people didn't quickly forget it.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> closest campus protest movement to the current one was against the Vietnam War The Student Strike of 1970 was an order of magnitude larger than today's Gaza protests, 900+ campuses participating [1] versus around 50 [2]. It was also culturally accentuated by the Kent State shootings [3] and draft. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_strike_of_1970 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_strike_of_1970 [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-college-pro-palestine-protests-map/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-college-pro-palestin... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings