5 ms·

So this is where the right leaning (and quite reasonable, in the long term) observation should be: there's a business opportunity to build and deploy storage ca

So this is where the right leaning (and quite reasonable, in the long term) observation should be: there's a business opportunity to build and deploy storage capacity with grid stabilization the top feature. That takes vision (which isn't always there), but also time. Perhaps also recognition in the regulatory ecosystem that this is needed, so that the business case (ie, build it and they will pay for it) is there.

singhrac 2y ago
There’s plenty of battery being deployed for ancillary services in Texas (frequency response, 30 minute, etc). They are getting paid tons to do it and it’s been coming online for years.
- cranky908canuck 2y ago
  This doesn't seem to be getting the exposure it deserves --- please give links, I'd like to see! You seem to be implying that "the featured article" [1] is not giving that exposure (which is my sense as well). [1] looking for the shorthand for the original link that started the discussion, thinking that 'TFA' is correct, is this in the HN FAQ?
  - 0xBDB 2y ago
    https://www.utilitydive.com/news/battery-storage-texas-reliability-grid-benefits/695982/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/battery-storage-texas-relia... It appears (not an expert) that Texas leads the country by such a margin in renewables that increasing battery storage an order of magnitude in 3 years was sort of a drop in the bucket.
    - cranky908canuck 2y ago
      Could be. The emerging picture (from some observers (including me, but I'm just one opinion) seems to be to build out like heck, then deal with the 'overproduction' using storage and markets. Storage can be things like smart hot water heaters, deferrable loads, local residential batteries, residential EV charging, etc...
  - singhrac 2y ago
    This article is decent: https://modoenergy.com/research/ercot-battery-energy-storage-system-august-2023-revenues-ancillary-services-ecrs-arbitrage https://modoenergy.com/research/ercot-battery-energy-storage... (no affiliation, looked like based on disclosure data). Look at the revenue: it's 6% (now 12%) from energy arb and 58% (now 34%) from RRS-PFR (primary frequency response). Fully discharging and charging a battery is expensive from a lifecycle perspective (I think, I would love a reference), and if you can get paid a lot of money to charge/discharge by 5%, or not to do anything at all but sit charged (ECRS), you'd take that before damaging your expensive installation. There isn't a lot of generation like this, primarily because getting a thermal generator to scale up or down is expensive, even for the nimblest of combined cycle plants.
    - cranky908canuck 2y ago
      Thanks for the reply! Seems like this is 'really short term' (under 1h) and in the realm of frequency stabilization (short peaks)...?
danans 2y ago
That observation isn't (politically) right leaning, at least not in the American context. Grid balancing storage is already being built out and operated in left leaning California, and already contributes significantly to supply during the evening demand ramp.
- cranky908canuck 2y ago
  Agreed, I made my comment based on the notion that there's a 'left-leaning-smell' to renewables (at least in TX), so a 'right-leaning' answer that maybe pulls (it/them/?) toward the centre would make sense.
deviantbit 2y ago
One would think, but Biden is looking at imposing a 30% excise tax on crypto miners. This is directly targeted at Texas, to slow further development and growth in that state. Crypto has been one of the largest drivers for renewable energy in Texas, and now they want to put a dagger in it. Investors are watching closely at putting any money into the grid because of the Biden administration. If that tax goes into effect, Texas will have far more energy production than it needs, possibly causing an energy-market crash in that state. I don't know, but it almost seems intentional. Texas can consume up to 8900 megawatts in the summer, average around 6500 MW, and crypto operations consuming up to 2500 MW. There is a lot to think about.
- danans 2y ago
  > One would think, but Biden is looking at imposing a 30% excise tax on crypto miners. This is directly targeted at Texas, to slow further development and growth in that state. It's not about targeting Texas. It's because the economic value returned to society (in GDP, jobs, etc) from the energy consumed by crypto is less than for energy consuming activities like manufacturing, especially considering the environmental cost of generating that power (which won't all be renewable for a while). This electricity-hungry onshore manufacturing boom is being boosted by legislation like Biden's CHIPS act, which is a big thing in Texas, and is being heavily promoted by Texas's governor: https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/business/Texas_CHIPS_Act_Snapshot.pdf https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/business/Texas_CHIPS_Act...
  - datagrimx 2y ago
    You apparently didn't read what you posted. Texas has been the largest chip producer in the nation for a long time. None of that had to do with Biden. Texas Instruments has three fabs a stones throw from me. Also, HR 7178 CHIPS for America Act was the first recent CHIPS Act, and it was under Trump and Republicans. If you read the wiki page, they completely omit how this all happened. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7178/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7178... Democrats abandoned the first bill because it was a Republican bill, then side loaded it into a Supreme Court Funding bill. Democrats literally copied the bill, added a bunch of language for Unions, subsidies and then called it their own. They removed the tax credit provision, and literally handed them money when they are already profitable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act Biden claimed credit for finally signing the bill, after subsidies and other hiring requirements were added to it. Also of note, all of these agreements are non-binding. Micron signed a deal today. They are going to do like most, dig a hole and take the money and leave. TSMC has completely stalled. There are not enough educated to workers on the project, and Biden's demands are creating a number of problems. They are going to stall until after the election, and if Trump loses, pull out completely. As for the electrical issues in Texas, I live here, and we do not have electrical issues. My power has been off once in 10 years and that was during the cold weather in 2021. I have friends I play PUBG/COD with in California and their power is out all the time. I do not understand why people complain about power in Texas. If you drive across the state we have more solar and wind farms than anyone. That includes nations. Biden promised a lot of things and did not deliver. He was supposed to decriminalize marijuana, didn't happen. He promised to reduce my healthcare costs, it didn't happen. They have more than doubled in 24 months. I was onboard for immigrants, but after my sisters daughter was killed by one, which has destroyed our family, I am against it. The amount of misinformation flowing right now is more than when Trump was in office. I am voting for RFK. He seems like the lesser of all evils. As for Texas, Democrats here are not like Democrats everywhere else. We are libertarian hippies. Quit boxing us in all together.

singhrac 2y ago

There’s plenty of battery being deployed for ancillary services in Texas (frequency response, 30 minute, etc). They are getting paid tons to do it and it’s been coming online for years.

cranky908canuck 2y ago
This doesn't seem to be getting the exposure it deserves --- please give links, I'd like to see! You seem to be implying that "the featured article" [1] is not giving that exposure (which is my sense as well). [1] looking for the shorthand for the original link that started the discussion, thinking that 'TFA' is correct, is this in the HN FAQ?
- 0xBDB 2y ago
  https://www.utilitydive.com/news/battery-storage-texas-reliability-grid-benefits/695982/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/battery-storage-texas-relia... It appears (not an expert) that Texas leads the country by such a margin in renewables that increasing battery storage an order of magnitude in 3 years was sort of a drop in the bucket.
  - cranky908canuck 2y ago
    Could be. The emerging picture (from some observers (including me, but I'm just one opinion) seems to be to build out like heck, then deal with the 'overproduction' using storage and markets. Storage can be things like smart hot water heaters, deferrable loads, local residential batteries, residential EV charging, etc...
- singhrac 2y ago
  This article is decent: https://modoenergy.com/research/ercot-battery-energy-storage-system-august-2023-revenues-ancillary-services-ecrs-arbitrage https://modoenergy.com/research/ercot-battery-energy-storage... (no affiliation, looked like based on disclosure data). Look at the revenue: it's 6% (now 12%) from energy arb and 58% (now 34%) from RRS-PFR (primary frequency response). Fully discharging and charging a battery is expensive from a lifecycle perspective (I think, I would love a reference), and if you can get paid a lot of money to charge/discharge by 5%, or not to do anything at all but sit charged (ECRS), you'd take that before damaging your expensive installation. There isn't a lot of generation like this, primarily because getting a thermal generator to scale up or down is expensive, even for the nimblest of combined cycle plants.
  - cranky908canuck 2y ago
    Thanks for the reply! Seems like this is 'really short term' (under 1h) and in the realm of frequency stabilization (short peaks)...?

danans 2y ago

That observation isn't (politically) right leaning, at least not in the American context. Grid balancing storage is already being built out and operated in left leaning California, and already contributes significantly to supply during the evening demand ramp.

cranky908canuck 2y ago
Agreed, I made my comment based on the notion that there's a 'left-leaning-smell' to renewables (at least in TX), so a 'right-leaning' answer that maybe pulls (it/them/?) toward the centre would make sense.

deviantbit 2y ago

One would think, but Biden is looking at imposing a 30% excise tax on crypto miners. This is directly targeted at Texas, to slow further development and growth in that state. Crypto has been one of the largest drivers for renewable energy in Texas, and now they want to put a dagger in it. Investors are watching closely at putting any money into the grid because of the Biden administration. If that tax goes into effect, Texas will have far more energy production than it needs, possibly causing an energy-market crash in that state. I don't know, but it almost seems intentional. Texas can consume up to 8900 megawatts in the summer, average around 6500 MW, and crypto operations consuming up to 2500 MW. There is a lot to think about.

danans 2y ago
> One would think, but Biden is looking at imposing a 30% excise tax on crypto miners. This is directly targeted at Texas, to slow further development and growth in that state. It's not about targeting Texas. It's because the economic value returned to society (in GDP, jobs, etc) from the energy consumed by crypto is less than for energy consuming activities like manufacturing, especially considering the environmental cost of generating that power (which won't all be renewable for a while). This electricity-hungry onshore manufacturing boom is being boosted by legislation like Biden's CHIPS act, which is a big thing in Texas, and is being heavily promoted by Texas's governor: https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/business/Texas_CHIPS_Act_Snapshot.pdf https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/business/Texas_CHIPS_Act...
- datagrimx 2y ago
  You apparently didn't read what you posted. Texas has been the largest chip producer in the nation for a long time. None of that had to do with Biden. Texas Instruments has three fabs a stones throw from me. Also, HR 7178 CHIPS for America Act was the first recent CHIPS Act, and it was under Trump and Republicans. If you read the wiki page, they completely omit how this all happened. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7178/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7178... Democrats abandoned the first bill because it was a Republican bill, then side loaded it into a Supreme Court Funding bill. Democrats literally copied the bill, added a bunch of language for Unions, subsidies and then called it their own. They removed the tax credit provision, and literally handed them money when they are already profitable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act Biden claimed credit for finally signing the bill, after subsidies and other hiring requirements were added to it. Also of note, all of these agreements are non-binding. Micron signed a deal today. They are going to do like most, dig a hole and take the money and leave. TSMC has completely stalled. There are not enough educated to workers on the project, and Biden's demands are creating a number of problems. They are going to stall until after the election, and if Trump loses, pull out completely. As for the electrical issues in Texas, I live here, and we do not have electrical issues. My power has been off once in 10 years and that was during the cold weather in 2021. I have friends I play PUBG/COD with in California and their power is out all the time. I do not understand why people complain about power in Texas. If you drive across the state we have more solar and wind farms than anyone. That includes nations. Biden promised a lot of things and did not deliver. He was supposed to decriminalize marijuana, didn't happen. He promised to reduce my healthcare costs, it didn't happen. They have more than doubled in 24 months. I was onboard for immigrants, but after my sisters daughter was killed by one, which has destroyed our family, I am against it. The amount of misinformation flowing right now is more than when Trump was in office. I am voting for RFK. He seems like the lesser of all evils. As for Texas, Democrats here are not like Democrats everywhere else. We are libertarian hippies. Quit boxing us in all together.