4 ms·

Dystopic world we're living in, and many of us here on this very forum have helped built it.

aaronbrethorst 3y ago
My favorite part of 1984 was about the well-maintained public transit infrastructure of Oceania, and how all of the inner party members who broke traffic laws received parking tickets.
- aaronbrethorst 3y ago
  I've been thinking about the description of these traffic tickets as "dystopian" more today than I'd like to admit. Something about it has really bothered me and I finally think I know what. I would argue that this is actually _utopian_: fair and equal treatment under the law, whether you are the NYPD Commissioner or the Mayor, Black or white, gay or straight, male or female—if you are parked in an illegal spot, you'll get a ticket in the mail.
  - paganel 3y ago
    > fair and equal treatment under the law That assumes that the "law" in general is fair and not favouring the current hegemonic societal consensus, which is definitely not the case. What people fail to see, or fail to want to see, is that the hoi polloi, the "poors", the "plebs", in many cases had to resort to actually breaking the law here and there in order to make their world a little bit more equal. These types of laws and the way that they are now applied will actively prohibit that in the future, in effect making this a less fair/less equal world (yes, I'm saying that in many instances actually breaking the existing law makes the world fairer for a big chunk of the population). I'm saying that more probably there was a bigger percentage of Tesla owners paying their parking tickets compared to clunker owners doing the same, so that this law (written and most especially applied in the spirit of the world inhabited by those Tesla owners) will in effect disproportionately affect the "poors"/"plebs" a lot more.
    - xigoi 3y ago
      Can you explain how a law that prohibits cars from blocking public transport is biased against poor people?
  - grobgambit 3y ago
    The problem with these things is they stack on each other and we never go backwards. Any single aspect is not a problem so much and someone will argue the merits of why it is a good idea. The system this builds though on a multi-decade scale is total insanity. I don't see how it is possible that there is anything resembling what we would call a free and open society in 50 years.
- eesmith 3y ago
  Well, we know Oceania had buses. And no traffic laws ("In Oceania there is no law.") You should note that the Ingsoc party opposition to private car ownership also applies to top-hats (part of the "uniform of the capitalists"): > Big Brother figured as the leader and guardian of the Revolution since its very earliest days. His exploits had been gradually pushed backwards in time until already they extended into the fabulous world of the Forties and the Thirties, when the capitalists in their strange cylindrical hats still rode through the streets of London in great gleaming motor cars ... So going on that interpretation, you can tell we live in a dystopia because almost no one wears top-hats now.
stefan_ 3y ago
Indeed, we should charge the parked driver for the cost caused by all those passengers in buses held up. They are getting off cheap with the ticket.
Axsuul 3y ago
How is this dystopian? Dystopian would be if we ticket cars based on how likely they might park in the bus lane.
- starfleet_bop 3y ago
  It violates the right to confront one’s accuser / question the witness in court. Presumption of guilt by default, requiring you to pay the fine before you’re allowed to contest the alleged infraction. Absolute rules usually means less natural justice, there are times when pursuing minor violations are not in the public interest.
  - Axsuul 3y ago
    "A person who is ticketed would have access to the recording, Territo said, and the ability to challenge the violation — a process that can take months."
  - acdha 3y ago
    You know, rather that making something you could just look at the literal decades of legal history here. People have been contesting camera tickets since the 20th century and the article specifically notes that they retain the video footage long enough to cover the adjudication period where someone has the right to challenge the ticket and would have access to the recording for that purpose. Where I live, every ticket arrives with a link to view the video. This has lead to really telling moments where people have ranted about the “trap” and some even share the videos, which reliably show them rolling through stop signs or red lights.
    - starfleet_bop 3y ago
      Because legal precedent has never been overturned … Also the fact that you’re only allowed to contest an allegation within an arbitrary amount of time hardly seems in concordance with natural justice.
      - acdha 3y ago

My favorite part of 1984 was about the well-maintained public transit infrastructure of Oceania, and how all of the inner party members who broke traffic laws received parking tickets.

aaronbrethorst 3y ago
I've been thinking about the description of these traffic tickets as "dystopian" more today than I'd like to admit. Something about it has really bothered me and I finally think I know what. I would argue that this is actually _utopian_: fair and equal treatment under the law, whether you are the NYPD Commissioner or the Mayor, Black or white, gay or straight, male or female—if you are parked in an illegal spot, you'll get a ticket in the mail.
- paganel 3y ago
  > fair and equal treatment under the law That assumes that the "law" in general is fair and not favouring the current hegemonic societal consensus, which is definitely not the case. What people fail to see, or fail to want to see, is that the hoi polloi, the "poors", the "plebs", in many cases had to resort to actually breaking the law here and there in order to make their world a little bit more equal. These types of laws and the way that they are now applied will actively prohibit that in the future, in effect making this a less fair/less equal world (yes, I'm saying that in many instances actually breaking the existing law makes the world fairer for a big chunk of the population). I'm saying that more probably there was a bigger percentage of Tesla owners paying their parking tickets compared to clunker owners doing the same, so that this law (written and most especially applied in the spirit of the world inhabited by those Tesla owners) will in effect disproportionately affect the "poors"/"plebs" a lot more.
  - xigoi 3y ago
    Can you explain how a law that prohibits cars from blocking public transport is biased against poor people?
- grobgambit 3y ago
  The problem with these things is they stack on each other and we never go backwards. Any single aspect is not a problem so much and someone will argue the merits of why it is a good idea. The system this builds though on a multi-decade scale is total insanity. I don't see how it is possible that there is anything resembling what we would call a free and open society in 50 years.
eesmith 3y ago
Well, we know Oceania had buses. And no traffic laws ("In Oceania there is no law.") You should note that the Ingsoc party opposition to private car ownership also applies to top-hats (part of the "uniform of the capitalists"): > Big Brother figured as the leader and guardian of the Revolution since its very earliest days. His exploits had been gradually pushed backwards in time until already they extended into the fabulous world of the Forties and the Thirties, when the capitalists in their strange cylindrical hats still rode through the streets of London in great gleaming motor cars ... So going on that interpretation, you can tell we live in a dystopia because almost no one wears top-hats now.

stefan_ 3y ago

Indeed, we should charge the parked driver for the cost caused by all those passengers in buses held up. They are getting off cheap with the ticket.

Axsuul 3y ago

How is this dystopian? Dystopian would be if we ticket cars based on how likely they might park in the bus lane.

starfleet_bop 3y ago
It violates the right to confront one’s accuser / question the witness in court. Presumption of guilt by default, requiring you to pay the fine before you’re allowed to contest the alleged infraction. Absolute rules usually means less natural justice, there are times when pursuing minor violations are not in the public interest.
- Axsuul 3y ago
  "A person who is ticketed would have access to the recording, Territo said, and the ability to challenge the violation — a process that can take months."
- acdha 3y ago
  You know, rather that making something you could just look at the literal decades of legal history here. People have been contesting camera tickets since the 20th century and the article specifically notes that they retain the video footage long enough to cover the adjudication period where someone has the right to challenge the ticket and would have access to the recording for that purpose. Where I live, every ticket arrives with a link to view the video. This has lead to really telling moments where people have ranted about the “trap” and some even share the videos, which reliably show them rolling through stop signs or red lights.
  - starfleet_bop 3y ago
    Because legal precedent has never been overturned … Also the fact that you’re only allowed to contest an allegation within an arbitrary amount of time hardly seems in concordance with natural justice.
    - acdha 3y ago