6 ms·

This is where most people really start to bicker about this issue. There is the group that understands that it is morally wrong to steal, and then there is the

This is where most people really start to bicker about this issue. There is the group that understands that it is morally wrong to steal, and then there is the group that does mental gymnastics to get out of "feeling bad" about it or to otherwise justify it somehow. You even end it with "I would not pay for content [...]." If that isn't outright just saying "yeah I steal and I don't care" then I don't know what is.

tomp 14y ago
I guess the issue is elsewhere - there is a group of people that think that copying is the same as stealing, and there is the group that can see the difference. I belong to the second group. Let me try to explain it to you... Would you rather that I stole your car, or just copy it?
- coderdude 14y ago
  That doesn't even make sense. Stealing is stealing regardless of whether it's something physical or something digital. Just because humans invented a new way for things to exist doesn't mean that products in that form aren't being stolen when you acquire them for free by downloading them off the The Pirate Bay.
  - tomp 14y ago
    Hm... Even assuming that I agreed with you assertion, you're making a lousy argument. First, you're attacking me/my intellect. Then, you make an assertion without providing even the slightest proof/argument for it (I'm not a native English speaker, but I'd say that the dictionary definition of stealing disagrees with you), and you're ignoring my real argument completely (i.e. that copying is different from depriving someone of a physical item which I just called "stealing"). Lastly, humans didn't just invent a new way for things to exist, humans also invented concepts such as property and intellectual property. The last one is actually quite new! So, stealing is a concept that is completely defined by the society, and I think it's in our best interest to talk about it, discuss how we should define it in the future.
- sritch 14y ago
  The comparison is flawed. The theft is not of the physical product, but of the proceeds or profits.
  - Falling3 14y ago
    And if you download something that you: are incapable of attaining due to geographical or other limiting factors, will buy after reviewing, or have 0 chance of buying or viewing/listening otherwise... where is the loss of profits?
  - tomp 14y ago
    > The theft is not of the physical product, but of the proceeds or profits. Only assuming that I would otherwise (if I hadn't copied it) pay. Which is often a false premise. Especially for people like me, who simply cannot pay, even if we want to (I don't live in the US, so much of the online content isn't available to me). I agree that not paying sometimes is stealing. E.g. when you don't pay a masseuse/prostituta after they have delivered their service. But, that is a completely different situation (you agreed to a exchange time<-->money, then you essentially broke the contract). Car stealing/copying is the best comparison I could think of. Maybe a better one would be, stealing a car from the company that makes it, vs. building an exact copy at home. The second one might be objectionable (infringing of patents & copyright), but they are most certainly not the same. I hope this clarifies my earlier argument a bit.
  - sritch 14y ago
    @Falling3 - If you mean to tell me that the majority of people who download copyrighted items, then go forward to buy the music, sure your argument is fair. @Tomp - Well it's hard to compare digital products to physical products since you don't have to create the item more than once for a digital good. Just because you didn't plan to pay anyway, doesn't make it any less "stealing" You can't use the argument "I was never going to buy it anyway" as a valid reason for stealing something.
    - Falling3 14y ago
      Most of the people I know that still regularly download music are huge audiophiles and buy a lot of physical music, attend concerts, and purchase other music merchandise. And that still leaves two other arguments. Personally, I downloaded a lot of music and movies when I was a poor HS/college student and there was literally 0 chance of me purchasing them as an alternative. The lost profits argument just doesn't apply.
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rohansingh 14y ago
Copyright infringement and theft are not the same thing. Using the word "steal" confuses the issue. When something is stolen, the owner no longer has it. This is not the case with copyright infringement. This may or may not be morally right or wrong in certain situations. But it is definitely different than "stealing", and just applying our same moral and ethical precepts about theft to copyright infringement does not work. They are fundamentally different and must be considered separately.

tomp 14y ago

I guess the issue is elsewhere - there is a group of people that think that copying is the same as stealing, and there is the group that can see the difference. I belong to the second group. Let me try to explain it to you... Would you rather that I stole your car, or just copy it?

coderdude 14y ago
That doesn't even make sense. Stealing is stealing regardless of whether it's something physical or something digital. Just because humans invented a new way for things to exist doesn't mean that products in that form aren't being stolen when you acquire them for free by downloading them off the The Pirate Bay.
- tomp 14y ago
  Hm... Even assuming that I agreed with you assertion, you're making a lousy argument. First, you're attacking me/my intellect. Then, you make an assertion without providing even the slightest proof/argument for it (I'm not a native English speaker, but I'd say that the dictionary definition of stealing disagrees with you), and you're ignoring my real argument completely (i.e. that copying is different from depriving someone of a physical item which I just called "stealing"). Lastly, humans didn't just invent a new way for things to exist, humans also invented concepts such as property and intellectual property. The last one is actually quite new! So, stealing is a concept that is completely defined by the society, and I think it's in our best interest to talk about it, discuss how we should define it in the future.
sritch 14y ago
The comparison is flawed. The theft is not of the physical product, but of the proceeds or profits.
- Falling3 14y ago
  And if you download something that you: are incapable of attaining due to geographical or other limiting factors, will buy after reviewing, or have 0 chance of buying or viewing/listening otherwise... where is the loss of profits?
- tomp 14y ago
  > The theft is not of the physical product, but of the proceeds or profits. Only assuming that I would otherwise (if I hadn't copied it) pay. Which is often a false premise. Especially for people like me, who simply cannot pay, even if we want to (I don't live in the US, so much of the online content isn't available to me). I agree that not paying sometimes is stealing. E.g. when you don't pay a masseuse/prostituta after they have delivered their service. But, that is a completely different situation (you agreed to a exchange time<-->money, then you essentially broke the contract). Car stealing/copying is the best comparison I could think of. Maybe a better one would be, stealing a car from the company that makes it, vs. building an exact copy at home. The second one might be objectionable (infringing of patents & copyright), but they are most certainly not the same. I hope this clarifies my earlier argument a bit.
- sritch 14y ago
  @Falling3 - If you mean to tell me that the majority of people who download copyrighted items, then go forward to buy the music, sure your argument is fair. @Tomp - Well it's hard to compare digital products to physical products since you don't have to create the item more than once for a digital good. Just because you didn't plan to pay anyway, doesn't make it any less "stealing" You can't use the argument "I was never going to buy it anyway" as a valid reason for stealing something.
  - Falling3 14y ago
    Most of the people I know that still regularly download music are huge audiophiles and buy a lot of physical music, attend concerts, and purchase other music merchandise. And that still leaves two other arguments. Personally, I downloaded a lot of music and movies when I was a poor HS/college student and there was literally 0 chance of me purchasing them as an alternative. The lost profits argument just doesn't apply.
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rohansingh 14y ago

Copyright infringement and theft are not the same thing. Using the word "steal" confuses the issue. When something is stolen, the owner no longer has it. This is not the case with copyright infringement. This may or may not be morally right or wrong in certain situations. But it is definitely different than "stealing", and just applying our same moral and ethical precepts about theft to copyright infringement does not work. They are fundamentally different and must be considered separately.