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> The good news for these internal interruptions is that it should be much easier to control them. For a long-time meditator, this is comedic gold. Just contro

> The good news for these internal interruptions is that it should be much easier to control them. For a long-time meditator, this is comedic gold. Just control your internal interruptions, stay focused. That's all, eh? Hehehehehe

Terr_ 2y ago
"My boss is always interrupting me with questions, and the office is very noisy. There's no easy fix for either of those external things, so you're lucky that all you have to deal with is internal ADHD and tinnitus!" /s
- sanderjd 2y ago
  But you still have to deal with those internal issues in a noisy distracting office! Being interrupted more by other people doesn't make it easier to manage internal struggles, it is a strictly additive difficulty.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Point is, external interruptions are trivial to deal with compared to internal struggles. You can wear ANC headphones in the office and negotiate focus time with your boss. You can change your boss, or your job, or restructure your work around interruptions. Point is, you have options that are sure to work, and tend to not require much upkeep; many are just "fire and forget" fixes. That's almost never the case with internal struggles. You can't negotiate your ADHD away. There's no mental "ANC headphones" equivalent to shut the bees buzzing in your head up. You're lucky if the problem is something that responds to pharmacotherapy. That means there's actually something you can do to fix it that has even a snowball's chance in hell of working.
    - sanderjd 2y ago
      I really think "trivial" is massive hyperbole here. Like most people commenting here, I have deep struggles with my own mind, I relate extremely strongly to all the things people are saying here about this. But things like negotiating across a power imbalance, finding and switching managers, teams, groups, switching jobs entirely... these are not trivial things! These are also extremely stressful things for which I don't think the word "trivial" gets anywhere near being an appropriate word choice.
sanderjd 2y ago
Not easy, easier! For "external interruptions", you have to do both things, keep people from bugging you and control your own mind. I think it's definitely easier to only do one of the two, despite still being really hard.
- saulpw 2y ago
  It's actually easier to control your external environment than your internal environment. If interruptions or distractions are like a monkey hopping around, then at least with an external monkey you can put it outside and lock the door. With an internal monkey you're stuck with it. Drugs help but come with side effects; meditation helps but takes concerted long-term effort separate from work. (And it's hard to motivate yourself in addition to your already long workday to improve your performance during said workday.)
  - pseudalopex 2y ago
    You can put an external monkey outside and lock the door if you have a door and your boss doesn't tell you you to allow the monkey. Some internal monkeys can be tamed with simple habits.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Not everyone can form "simple habits", especially when they have monkeys running around their brain. For external monkeys, there are always some solutions that have little ongoing costs - negotiation, ANC headphones, office hours, telling the monkey to GTFO. Can't tell your own brain to shut up.
      - freedomben 2y ago
        GP did not say that "everyone can form "simple habits." That's a strawman version of their position. Emphasis mine: > Some internal monkeys can be tamed with simple habits. If you dismiss the advice because it's not universally applicable, I think you do yourself and others a disservice. I have some very bad ADHD that I have worked for years to control (using tools ranging from medication to meditation/mindfulness, etc). I fully agree that the monkeys in your brain can't be fully tamed, but surely you would agree that there is at least something that most people can do to improve things even a little bit? It's definitely hard, but not impossible.
zmgsabst 2y ago
As a long time meditator, I’m not sure what you find amusing. Are you saying you have more control of what other people do than your own mind? If not, what are you objecting to in saying that it’s easier to control yourself than others? I’m really struggling not to see your comment as living down to stereotypes: vapidly smug.
- avtar 2y ago
  After enough hours of meditation practice it becomes quite clear that one's mind is ungovernable at best. We can just hope to hold a clear intention (meditation practice in a nutshell) and return to the task whenever internal or external interruptions arise. Perhaps more and more parts of the mind will align with the intention. Hopefully the mind gets unified over time and as a result flow states can be experienced. The person whose comment you're replying to was probably highlighting the fact that this process is not as predictable as the parent comment alluded to.
  - zmgsabst 2y ago
    But there’s empirical results, from sports to military to meditation — you can train focus. That makes it easier to maintain your focus, as the person originally said. A few cute euphemisms don’t mitigate that demonstrated reality; and so I’m left confused still — You’re mocking someone pointing out fact with a quip.
- justinpombrio 2y ago
  Oh that's not what I'm saying at all. I was recently at a meditation retreat, and a group of meditators much more advanced than me universally agreed that an apt description of their minds was "like a box of ferrets". The illusion that you control your chain of thought vanishes pretty quickly with meditation. The reality is that your attention shifts rapidly (especially between different senses) and that most of those shifts aren't under direct conscious control.
  - Sleepful 2y ago
    Your lack of discipline does not reflect a major truth about the human condition. Sorry you feel that way.
makmanalp 2y ago
Agreed fully. I'll admit I also had a chuckle at the expense of the parent post here (I'm sorry - the rest of this post isn't meant to pick on you or describe you specifically). I think this there is a lesson in here somewhere on the intellectual confidence that comes with being good at one thing, and the silliness that can ensue when it might not translate elsewhere. Not in even necessarily in a malicious or foolish way, but in a "it can catch you even when you think you're accounting for it" kind of way. If not empathy for the sake of moral reasons or even good vibes, I wish that we could at least convince the "I read the abstract of 3 papers / I read a gwern post about this / I accomplished something hard in my life so I know everything" crowd of the utility of empathy as a tool for exploring your "unknown unknowns". You'd think that more people would be interested in a dialectic (in the classical philosophy sense) discussion as a cooperative if conflicting search for truth. This is harder to do if you systematically overestimate yourself and underestimate others. Of course as I write this I'm thinking of all the times I didn't practice what I'm preaching now.
- zmgsabst 2y ago
  > “I accomplished something hard in my life so I know everything" crowd of the utility of empathy as a tool for exploring your "unknown unknowns". Do you believe you’ve demonstrated “the utility of empathy” in your post? — or even your interpretation of what was said? - - - > Of course as I write this I'm thinking of all the times I didn't practice what I'm preaching now. > Not in even necessarily in a malicious or foolish way, but in a "it can catch you even when you think you're accounting for it" kind of way. > This is harder to do if you systematically overestimate yourself and underestimate others. Mm.
  - kbenson 2y ago
    I'm not sure if you're expressing what you think you are. They outlined a group by nature of the problem (so the people in question have something to improve, tautalogically), so it's not like they are painting with an overly broad brush, unless you think people that accomplished something hard and then automatically assume they have faculty in all topics is not a group in need of examining their assumptions more closely?
jajko 2y ago
Just stop being sad. Just focus. Just be a good balanced human being. When I was a child, world and humans in it were so simple. Good old times, at least relatively speaking.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  I like to say "just" for things like this :) In the sense that, this really is the answer, but the devil is in the details. (Usually in this same way of implying that it approaches pointlessness to even mention the thing you "just" need to do.)
hgomersall 2y ago
From the article, a fair few internal interruptions are procedural, things like writing a commit message. I took a big point as being that you should design your work processes to help maintain flow.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  You said this so much better than me! These were the ones I was thinking more of when writing my comment, rather than all the distractions of a noisy brain. I agree entirely with folks here that those are not in any way easy to overcome. (Though still easier to overcome in the absence of lots of external interruptions.)
VS1999 2y ago
Obviously it's easier than dealing with external interruptions. I don't suppose you do your hippie calming exercises while bob from accounting tries to get information from you for the 5th time this hour.
- bloqs 2y ago
  This is wonderfully naive. You can fairly easily learn to control Bob though articulated speech or just leave. Controlling the internal is the central focus of most world religions, and not being able to do it is responsible for most suffering on earth. We are mostly helpless cognonauts.
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    But again, controlling Bob is in addition to controlling the internal. It's additive, not a replacement of a harder thing with an easier one. And if you feel time pressure, as I often do, any time spent controlling those external distractions just leaves you with less time to work through the real issues, and thus more anxiety, such that the final level of difficulty is even greater than the sum of the parts.
    - bloqs 2y ago
      Respectfully disagree, controlling the internal and controlling bob are parallel at best, they are not binary states. No one (other than possibly the sprinkling of humans who have achieved enlightenment or someone temporarily under a heavy dose of psycho-motor stimulants) can fully control themselves internally. Minor, fleeting internal control occurs frequently. Being able to sum up the strength to initiate the process of planning and acting to perform directed speech to control Bob would be an example of this (and appropriate for your additive example) but the full state of internal control required to disconnect your senses and observation from Bob's incoming external interferences without impacting your own faculties or performance is a rare kind, or 'level' of internal control that many do not possess. Interestingly, this is all derivative of personality.
      - 2y ago
fragmede 2y ago
Not to just throw drugs at a problem, but I've found Lamictal really helps with internal interruptions.
- arrowsmith 2y ago
  I can't find any search results. Did you mean Lamictal?
  - fragmede 2y ago
    yes thanks, edited.
intelVISA 2y ago
Step 1. find inner peace ~It's literally that easy~
orangevelcro 2y ago
As someone with ADHD, I concur.
- steve_adams_86 2y ago
  But, like, why don't you just stop getting distracted? Have you ever tried that?

Terr_ 2y ago

"My boss is always interrupting me with questions, and the office is very noisy. There's no easy fix for either of those external things, so you're lucky that all you have to deal with is internal ADHD and tinnitus!" /s

sanderjd 2y ago
But you still have to deal with those internal issues in a noisy distracting office! Being interrupted more by other people doesn't make it easier to manage internal struggles, it is a strictly additive difficulty.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Point is, external interruptions are trivial to deal with compared to internal struggles. You can wear ANC headphones in the office and negotiate focus time with your boss. You can change your boss, or your job, or restructure your work around interruptions. Point is, you have options that are sure to work, and tend to not require much upkeep; many are just "fire and forget" fixes. That's almost never the case with internal struggles. You can't negotiate your ADHD away. There's no mental "ANC headphones" equivalent to shut the bees buzzing in your head up. You're lucky if the problem is something that responds to pharmacotherapy. That means there's actually something you can do to fix it that has even a snowball's chance in hell of working.
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    I really think "trivial" is massive hyperbole here. Like most people commenting here, I have deep struggles with my own mind, I relate extremely strongly to all the things people are saying here about this. But things like negotiating across a power imbalance, finding and switching managers, teams, groups, switching jobs entirely... these are not trivial things! These are also extremely stressful things for which I don't think the word "trivial" gets anywhere near being an appropriate word choice.

sanderjd 2y ago

Not easy, easier! For "external interruptions", you have to do both things, keep people from bugging you and control your own mind. I think it's definitely easier to only do one of the two, despite still being really hard.

saulpw 2y ago
It's actually easier to control your external environment than your internal environment. If interruptions or distractions are like a monkey hopping around, then at least with an external monkey you can put it outside and lock the door. With an internal monkey you're stuck with it. Drugs help but come with side effects; meditation helps but takes concerted long-term effort separate from work. (And it's hard to motivate yourself in addition to your already long workday to improve your performance during said workday.)
- pseudalopex 2y ago
  You can put an external monkey outside and lock the door if you have a door and your boss doesn't tell you you to allow the monkey. Some internal monkeys can be tamed with simple habits.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Not everyone can form "simple habits", especially when they have monkeys running around their brain. For external monkeys, there are always some solutions that have little ongoing costs - negotiation, ANC headphones, office hours, telling the monkey to GTFO. Can't tell your own brain to shut up.
    - freedomben 2y ago
      GP did not say that "everyone can form "simple habits." That's a strawman version of their position. Emphasis mine: > Some internal monkeys can be tamed with simple habits. If you dismiss the advice because it's not universally applicable, I think you do yourself and others a disservice. I have some very bad ADHD that I have worked for years to control (using tools ranging from medication to meditation/mindfulness, etc). I fully agree that the monkeys in your brain can't be fully tamed, but surely you would agree that there is at least something that most people can do to improve things even a little bit? It's definitely hard, but not impossible.

zmgsabst 2y ago

As a long time meditator, I’m not sure what you find amusing. Are you saying you have more control of what other people do than your own mind? If not, what are you objecting to in saying that it’s easier to control yourself than others? I’m really struggling not to see your comment as living down to stereotypes: vapidly smug.

avtar 2y ago
After enough hours of meditation practice it becomes quite clear that one's mind is ungovernable at best. We can just hope to hold a clear intention (meditation practice in a nutshell) and return to the task whenever internal or external interruptions arise. Perhaps more and more parts of the mind will align with the intention. Hopefully the mind gets unified over time and as a result flow states can be experienced. The person whose comment you're replying to was probably highlighting the fact that this process is not as predictable as the parent comment alluded to.
- zmgsabst 2y ago
  But there’s empirical results, from sports to military to meditation — you can train focus. That makes it easier to maintain your focus, as the person originally said. A few cute euphemisms don’t mitigate that demonstrated reality; and so I’m left confused still — You’re mocking someone pointing out fact with a quip.
justinpombrio 2y ago
Oh that's not what I'm saying at all. I was recently at a meditation retreat, and a group of meditators much more advanced than me universally agreed that an apt description of their minds was "like a box of ferrets". The illusion that you control your chain of thought vanishes pretty quickly with meditation. The reality is that your attention shifts rapidly (especially between different senses) and that most of those shifts aren't under direct conscious control.
- Sleepful 2y ago
  Your lack of discipline does not reflect a major truth about the human condition. Sorry you feel that way.

makmanalp 2y ago

Agreed fully. I'll admit I also had a chuckle at the expense of the parent post here (I'm sorry - the rest of this post isn't meant to pick on you or describe you specifically). I think this there is a lesson in here somewhere on the intellectual confidence that comes with being good at one thing, and the silliness that can ensue when it might not translate elsewhere. Not in even necessarily in a malicious or foolish way, but in a "it can catch you even when you think you're accounting for it" kind of way. If not empathy for the sake of moral reasons or even good vibes, I wish that we could at least convince the "I read the abstract of 3 papers / I read a gwern post about this / I accomplished something hard in my life so I know everything" crowd of the utility of empathy as a tool for exploring your "unknown unknowns". You'd think that more people would be interested in a dialectic (in the classical philosophy sense) discussion as a cooperative if conflicting search for truth. This is harder to do if you systematically overestimate yourself and underestimate others. Of course as I write this I'm thinking of all the times I didn't practice what I'm preaching now.

zmgsabst 2y ago
> “I accomplished something hard in my life so I know everything" crowd of the utility of empathy as a tool for exploring your "unknown unknowns". Do you believe you’ve demonstrated “the utility of empathy” in your post? — or even your interpretation of what was said? - - - > Of course as I write this I'm thinking of all the times I didn't practice what I'm preaching now. > Not in even necessarily in a malicious or foolish way, but in a "it can catch you even when you think you're accounting for it" kind of way. > This is harder to do if you systematically overestimate yourself and underestimate others. Mm.
- kbenson 2y ago
  I'm not sure if you're expressing what you think you are. They outlined a group by nature of the problem (so the people in question have something to improve, tautalogically), so it's not like they are painting with an overly broad brush, unless you think people that accomplished something hard and then automatically assume they have faculty in all topics is not a group in need of examining their assumptions more closely?

jajko 2y ago

Just stop being sad. Just focus. Just be a good balanced human being. When I was a child, world and humans in it were so simple. Good old times, at least relatively speaking.

sanderjd 2y ago
I like to say "just" for things like this :) In the sense that, this really is the answer, but the devil is in the details. (Usually in this same way of implying that it approaches pointlessness to even mention the thing you "just" need to do.)

hgomersall 2y ago

From the article, a fair few internal interruptions are procedural, things like writing a commit message. I took a big point as being that you should design your work processes to help maintain flow.

sanderjd 2y ago
You said this so much better than me! These were the ones I was thinking more of when writing my comment, rather than all the distractions of a noisy brain. I agree entirely with folks here that those are not in any way easy to overcome. (Though still easier to overcome in the absence of lots of external interruptions.)

VS1999 2y ago

Obviously it's easier than dealing with external interruptions. I don't suppose you do your hippie calming exercises while bob from accounting tries to get information from you for the 5th time this hour.

bloqs 2y ago
This is wonderfully naive. You can fairly easily learn to control Bob though articulated speech or just leave. Controlling the internal is the central focus of most world religions, and not being able to do it is responsible for most suffering on earth. We are mostly helpless cognonauts.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  But again, controlling Bob is in addition to controlling the internal. It's additive, not a replacement of a harder thing with an easier one. And if you feel time pressure, as I often do, any time spent controlling those external distractions just leaves you with less time to work through the real issues, and thus more anxiety, such that the final level of difficulty is even greater than the sum of the parts.
  - bloqs 2y ago
    Respectfully disagree, controlling the internal and controlling bob are parallel at best, they are not binary states. No one (other than possibly the sprinkling of humans who have achieved enlightenment or someone temporarily under a heavy dose of psycho-motor stimulants) can fully control themselves internally. Minor, fleeting internal control occurs frequently. Being able to sum up the strength to initiate the process of planning and acting to perform directed speech to control Bob would be an example of this (and appropriate for your additive example) but the full state of internal control required to disconnect your senses and observation from Bob's incoming external interferences without impacting your own faculties or performance is a rare kind, or 'level' of internal control that many do not possess. Interestingly, this is all derivative of personality.
    - 2y ago

fragmede 2y ago

Not to just throw drugs at a problem, but I've found Lamictal really helps with internal interruptions.

arrowsmith 2y ago
I can't find any search results. Did you mean Lamictal?
- fragmede 2y ago
  yes thanks, edited.

intelVISA 2y ago

Step 1. find inner peace ~It's literally that easy~

orangevelcro 2y ago

As someone with ADHD, I concur.

steve_adams_86 2y ago
But, like, why don't you just stop getting distracted? Have you ever tried that?