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I'm working on a facility with redundant power and my impression is that it's not insanely expensive if you have expensive machinery to protect and that diesel

I'm working on a facility with redundant power and my impression is that it's not insanely expensive if you have expensive machinery to protect and that diesel generators are far and away the most common and inexpensive second feed.

michaelt 3y ago
Diesel generators are great if you need a few hours of backup (assuming the generator actually starts when you call on it). But if you need enough backup capacity to survive something a multi-state, multi-day blackout [1] that probably gets expensive. You wouldn't need that for a premium erotic call processor, but a 911 call exchange might, for the portion of their workload they can't pass off to another exchange. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003
- segmondy 3y ago
  Natural gas generators.
- j45 3y ago
  Looking at multi fuel generators is worth it too depending on your setup. For example some can run gas/propane/natural gas
- willis936 3y ago
  You can store about a day's worth of diesel on-site and have agreements in place to have daily refills in cases of emergencies. If you can't get gasoline within a day's drive then there's bigger problems in the world.
  - progbits 3y ago
    In many places going over what you can store might put you over emission quotas and you would have to shut down anyway. I'm familiar with one incident at large DC which had fuel left and could easily get more, but only had few hours before they were required to shut down by EPA.
- s0rce 3y ago
  I worked at a site where we powered a bunch of stuff consistently from diesel generators until the grid hookup was finished, much longer than a few days. Probably was expensive.
xen2xen1 3y ago
Worked at a place with a natural gas genny as the second source. You don't have to feed it, it just keeps working.
- ocdtrekkie 3y ago
  Technically you are just feeding it power from a different utility company than the electric company.
  - hedora 3y ago
    I wonder if natural gas is actually redundant at this point. Around here, phone company decided to take a dependency on the power grid, so phone + internet go down if the power is down. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some utilities have started installing smart meter upgrades or inline compressors or computer-controlled valves that don't have generators attached to them.
    - wongarsu 3y ago
      > phone company decided to take a dependency on the power grid, so phone + internet go down if the power is down I hope it goes down a couple hours later? Around here (Germany) your phone and internet is also dependent on a junction box with routers somewhere within half a mile or so of your home having power. But they have four hours of battery backup, and on normal-sized outages they send people out with diesel generators when the batteries start running low (prioritizing business customers). Having it go down from power loss is a decision made in triage, not something that just happens
      - tharkun__ 3y ago
        How common are power outages? Historically and in the coming years given nuclear power I hear is dead in Germany and France's reactors are old or need to shut down because of rivers being too hot in summer. Is the 4 hours a 1980s decision that needs revising? Asking, coz Canada here. Power outages aren't uncommon (when I say that I mean: expect at least one that makes you get out the generator in 'shoulder season' per year), coz power lines (not talking transmission lines) are mostly above ground, except in large cities of course. But as soon as you get out of the "center" (which depending on city is larger or smaller too) it's good old wooden poles that carry power on the top and cable / phone on the lower level. Bucket transformer[1] on a pole near you blows up is a favourite but the lines are actually fine, including your cable / DSL. Last time we also lost internet it took about 24 hours after power went out that internet went down as well. Cell phone service from the same company was still fine. The entire metro area was out of power for days and I guess they prioritized topping up the diesel/LP for those. [1] These guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_transformer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_transformer

michaelt 3y ago

Diesel generators are great if you need a few hours of backup (assuming the generator actually starts when you call on it). But if you need enough backup capacity to survive something a multi-state, multi-day blackout [1] that probably gets expensive. You wouldn't need that for a premium erotic call processor, but a 911 call exchange might, for the portion of their workload they can't pass off to another exchange. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003

segmondy 3y ago
Natural gas generators.
j45 3y ago
Looking at multi fuel generators is worth it too depending on your setup. For example some can run gas/propane/natural gas
willis936 3y ago
You can store about a day's worth of diesel on-site and have agreements in place to have daily refills in cases of emergencies. If you can't get gasoline within a day's drive then there's bigger problems in the world.
- progbits 3y ago
  In many places going over what you can store might put you over emission quotas and you would have to shut down anyway. I'm familiar with one incident at large DC which had fuel left and could easily get more, but only had few hours before they were required to shut down by EPA.
s0rce 3y ago
I worked at a site where we powered a bunch of stuff consistently from diesel generators until the grid hookup was finished, much longer than a few days. Probably was expensive.

xen2xen1 3y ago

Worked at a place with a natural gas genny as the second source. You don't have to feed it, it just keeps working.

ocdtrekkie 3y ago
Technically you are just feeding it power from a different utility company than the electric company.
- hedora 3y ago
  I wonder if natural gas is actually redundant at this point. Around here, phone company decided to take a dependency on the power grid, so phone + internet go down if the power is down. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some utilities have started installing smart meter upgrades or inline compressors or computer-controlled valves that don't have generators attached to them.
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    > phone company decided to take a dependency on the power grid, so phone + internet go down if the power is down I hope it goes down a couple hours later? Around here (Germany) your phone and internet is also dependent on a junction box with routers somewhere within half a mile or so of your home having power. But they have four hours of battery backup, and on normal-sized outages they send people out with diesel generators when the batteries start running low (prioritizing business customers). Having it go down from power loss is a decision made in triage, not something that just happens
    - tharkun__ 3y ago
      How common are power outages? Historically and in the coming years given nuclear power I hear is dead in Germany and France's reactors are old or need to shut down because of rivers being too hot in summer. Is the 4 hours a 1980s decision that needs revising? Asking, coz Canada here. Power outages aren't uncommon (when I say that I mean: expect at least one that makes you get out the generator in 'shoulder season' per year), coz power lines (not talking transmission lines) are mostly above ground, except in large cities of course. But as soon as you get out of the "center" (which depending on city is larger or smaller too) it's good old wooden poles that carry power on the top and cable / phone on the lower level. Bucket transformer[1] on a pole near you blows up is a favourite but the lines are actually fine, including your cable / DSL. Last time we also lost internet it took about 24 hours after power went out that internet went down as well. Cell phone service from the same company was still fine. The entire metro area was out of power for days and I guess they prioritized topping up the diesel/LP for those. [1] These guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_transformer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_transformer