8 ms·

Lawsuits test Tesla claim that drivers are solely responsible for crashes

19 points by mikequinlan 2y ago

mikequinlan 2y ago
"Multiple civil cases -- and a federal investigation -- contend that Tesla’s technology invites ‘drivers to overly trust the automation.’"
- martindbp 2y ago
  By nagging every 30 seconds and giving you a strike against the account if you look away for more than a few seconds. Older cars dont have a cabin camera, but the nags for newer vehicles are frequent. At some point you have to give liability to the end user or we can't have ADAS anymore. Which means we'll delay self driving for personal vehicles for many years, costing thousands of lives every year.
  - bdcravens 2y ago
    For FSD or even AutoPilot?
    - martindbp 2y ago
      Maybe just FSD.
  - sorokod 2y ago
    At some point you have to give liability to the end user or we can't have ADAS anymore. Alternatively, the ADAS providers could take the liability on themselves. That would be a strong show of confidence and commitment to their technology and to saving lives.
    - martindbp 2y ago
      What do you think would have happened to the automobile if Ford had to take liability for every accident? There will be a few years when FSD is worse than human drivers, and then it will be super human. But to get there you need data. Or you can go the slow route of Waymo, but delay this technology by 5 years and you've killed a great number of people, probably thousands. 40k die in car accidents every year in the US, only a handful of them are ADAS-related. Not only that, but Tesla releases statistics that show cars using autopilot have fewer accidents than those who don't. There may be issues with the data, but it's clear that it's not significantly worse.
      - sorokod 2y ago
        If Ford Model T was offered without a steering wheel, I am thinking jail time.
    - dzhiurgis 2y ago
      Why focus on Tesla then? All but MB in some super tight scenario (maybe 1-5% of total) are not covering liability. Why moral panic around tesla? Why each time Tesla is mentioned this forum turns into some fascist bootlickers?
  - salawat 2y ago
    The problem is the people developing these don't care about who gets endangered in the process of rolling it out. They care about being beneficiaries of the fiscal engine that creates it. I don't need moneygrubbers developing such a system.
  - Veserv 2y ago
    Your comment is a prime example that operators are confused and unclear about how to operate the system. You call it a "nag", but the manual [1] clearly states: 1. Autosteer Bubble 1: "Keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times, be mindful of road conditions..." 2. Navigate on Autopilot Bubble 2: "Always keep your hands on the wheel and your eyes on the driving path in front of you" 3. Navigate on Autopilot Bubble 3: "keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times, and remain aware of your navigation route" 4. Autosteer on City Streets Bubble 2: "Keep your hands on the steering yoke (or steering wheel) at all times, be mindful of road conditions..." A system that requires hands on the wheel at all times for safe operation should, like a regular car which also requires hands on the wheel at all times, only have hands off the wheel for a few seconds at most. This warning is provided side-by-side with the warning to always pay attention and thus demands a similar degree of importance and adherence. A warning after 30 seconds of failing to operate the system safely is not a "nag". You are operating it incorrectly for a tremendous amount of time every time that warning occurs. In fact, it should generate after 1-3 seconds like the attention monitoring as it is something you must do at all times. They could remove that restriction by designing a system that does not require hands on the wheel at all times, but while that is a requirement it should be enforced correctly instead of enforced as a useless legal ass-covering afterthought. That you are confidently asserting the belief that you must take responsibility for attention, but the equally important requirement to keep hands on the wheel is viewed as a unnecessary nag, and repeatedly referenced and advertised as such by official spokespeople, shows you are fundamentally confused about the safe operation of the system and the commercial messaging about it is inherently confusing even to sophisticated operators. [1] https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_us/GUID-E5FF5E84-6AAC-43E6-B7ED-EC1E9AEB17B7.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_us/GUID-E5FF5E8...
zzz999 2y ago
[dead]
sorokod 2y ago
Meanwhile, the company has defended itself in court documents by arguing that its user manuals and on-screen warnings make “extremely clear” that drivers must be fully in control while using Autopilot. Somewhat unrelated, I have a personal list of automatic liar indicators, "extremely clear" is high on that list.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  How much responsibility does Tesla have in attempting to encourage willfully irresponsible and negligent humans to be less so? Or are we all beholden to the lowest common denominator. The warnings are clear when enabling the driver assistance system. You are responsible. Pay attention. If you don’t, you’re liable. Any Tesla drivers who say otherwise are a combination of ignorant and liars.
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    Maybe they should call it something like "driver assistance system" rather than "full self driving"? I've never driven a Tesla, so I'm not aware of what warnings are in place, but doesn't it seem reasonable to think that a full self driving system could fully self drive the car? Perhaps it is Tesla who is lying if the car is not capable of driving itself fully?
    - qsdf38100 2y ago
      This "Full Self Driving" thing is absurd. It should already be illegal to sell "Self Driving" cars that are 0% responsible for any crash. But Elon thought it wasn’t enough and decided to go Full Hypocrisy and called it "Full Self Driving". What a joke.
  - sorokod 2y ago
    I guess that the outcomes of these lawsuits will tell. I'd phrase your question differently though: how much responsibility does Tesla have in selling a mass consumer product that allows consumers to be irresponsible and negligent in a friction-less manner.
exe34 2y ago
Schrödinger's autopilot. It's fully self-driving when you're paying for it, but it's all your fault when it crashes.
nothercastle 2y ago
I think it should be partial Tesla responsibility. If you are L2/5 then it’s 40% teslas 60% driver
- nicklecompte 2y ago
  The claim is not really based on Tesla's technology - the problem is Tesla's dishonest advertising and Elon Musk being an unethical idiot. Your rule makes some sense as a guideline, but it only works in the case where the driver and the auto manufacturer are doing the right thing yet something goes wrong. It does not work if the driver was watching YouTube instead of paying attention, and it does not work if the manufacturer routinely advertises a L2 system as having L4 capabilities. Even the names "Autopiliot" and "Full-Self Driving" are misleading. IMO its so misleading that Musk deserves to go to jail.
georgeplusplus 2y ago
I’m in the ballpark you are given warning that you must be in control at all times. It’s not a multi page agreement it’s a simple and direct message that anyone should be able to digest. Send people back to the DMV and make them take a self driving technologies endorsement before enabling it on the vehicle. So the people that want to cater to the lowest common denominator of stupidity can really feel the effects of what that feels like.
- JoeAltmaier 2y ago
  Then what use self-driving? If you're poised to take over at any moment, it's providing nothing. No, the very act of promoting self-driving creates some kind of expectation that the human isn't doing the driving. Right? That seems like a simple, direct message that anyone should be able to digest.
  - georgeplusplus 2y ago
    I disagree it’s well understood L2 requires human intervention. Sounds like you have higher expectations of the capabilities than what the system offers. It’s an assist. That’s it. Whether it’s driving or not isn’t the focus here it’s the expectation of who has ultimate control. The driver.
    - dehugger 2y ago
      Nothing screams "it's an assist; that's it" like "full self driving".
      - georgeplusplus 2y ago
        Where does it say it’s “full self driving”? “Autopilot is a hands-on driver assistance system that is intended to be used only with a fully attentive driver. It does not turn a Tesla into a self-driving vehicle nor does it make a vehicle autonomous.” https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#:~:text=Do%20I%20still%20need%20to,it%20make%20a%20vehicle%20autonomous https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#:~:text=Do%20I%20sti....
JoeAltmaier 2y ago
The 'self-driving' feature is as least an attractive nuisance. They want to press their point (that drivers are responsible) it's simple: disable the self-driving feature.

19 points by mikequinlan 2y ago

"Multiple civil cases -- and a federal investigation -- contend that Tesla’s technology invites ‘drivers to overly trust the automation.’"

martindbp 2y ago
By nagging every 30 seconds and giving you a strike against the account if you look away for more than a few seconds. Older cars dont have a cabin camera, but the nags for newer vehicles are frequent. At some point you have to give liability to the end user or we can't have ADAS anymore. Which means we'll delay self driving for personal vehicles for many years, costing thousands of lives every year.
- bdcravens 2y ago
  For FSD or even AutoPilot?
  - martindbp 2y ago
    Maybe just FSD.
- sorokod 2y ago
  At some point you have to give liability to the end user or we can't have ADAS anymore. Alternatively, the ADAS providers could take the liability on themselves. That would be a strong show of confidence and commitment to their technology and to saving lives.
  - martindbp 2y ago
    What do you think would have happened to the automobile if Ford had to take liability for every accident? There will be a few years when FSD is worse than human drivers, and then it will be super human. But to get there you need data. Or you can go the slow route of Waymo, but delay this technology by 5 years and you've killed a great number of people, probably thousands. 40k die in car accidents every year in the US, only a handful of them are ADAS-related. Not only that, but Tesla releases statistics that show cars using autopilot have fewer accidents than those who don't. There may be issues with the data, but it's clear that it's not significantly worse.
    - sorokod 2y ago
      If Ford Model T was offered without a steering wheel, I am thinking jail time.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    Why focus on Tesla then? All but MB in some super tight scenario (maybe 1-5% of total) are not covering liability. Why moral panic around tesla? Why each time Tesla is mentioned this forum turns into some fascist bootlickers?
- salawat 2y ago
  The problem is the people developing these don't care about who gets endangered in the process of rolling it out. They care about being beneficiaries of the fiscal engine that creates it. I don't need moneygrubbers developing such a system.
- Veserv 2y ago
  Your comment is a prime example that operators are confused and unclear about how to operate the system. You call it a "nag", but the manual [1] clearly states: 1. Autosteer Bubble 1: "Keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times, be mindful of road conditions..." 2. Navigate on Autopilot Bubble 2: "Always keep your hands on the wheel and your eyes on the driving path in front of you" 3. Navigate on Autopilot Bubble 3: "keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times, and remain aware of your navigation route" 4. Autosteer on City Streets Bubble 2: "Keep your hands on the steering yoke (or steering wheel) at all times, be mindful of road conditions..." A system that requires hands on the wheel at all times for safe operation should, like a regular car which also requires hands on the wheel at all times, only have hands off the wheel for a few seconds at most. This warning is provided side-by-side with the warning to always pay attention and thus demands a similar degree of importance and adherence. A warning after 30 seconds of failing to operate the system safely is not a "nag". You are operating it incorrectly for a tremendous amount of time every time that warning occurs. In fact, it should generate after 1-3 seconds like the attention monitoring as it is something you must do at all times. They could remove that restriction by designing a system that does not require hands on the wheel at all times, but while that is a requirement it should be enforced correctly instead of enforced as a useless legal ass-covering afterthought. That you are confidently asserting the belief that you must take responsibility for attention, but the equally important requirement to keep hands on the wheel is viewed as a unnecessary nag, and repeatedly referenced and advertised as such by official spokespeople, shows you are fundamentally confused about the safe operation of the system and the commercial messaging about it is inherently confusing even to sophisticated operators. [1] https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_us/GUID-E5FF5E84-6AAC-43E6-B7ED-EC1E9AEB17B7.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_us/GUID-E5FF5E8...

zzz999 2y ago

[dead]

sorokod 2y ago

Meanwhile, the company has defended itself in court documents by arguing that its user manuals and on-screen warnings make “extremely clear” that drivers must be fully in control while using Autopilot. Somewhat unrelated, I have a personal list of automatic liar indicators, "extremely clear" is high on that list.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
How much responsibility does Tesla have in attempting to encourage willfully irresponsible and negligent humans to be less so? Or are we all beholden to the lowest common denominator. The warnings are clear when enabling the driver assistance system. You are responsible. Pay attention. If you don’t, you’re liable. Any Tesla drivers who say otherwise are a combination of ignorant and liars.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  Maybe they should call it something like "driver assistance system" rather than "full self driving"? I've never driven a Tesla, so I'm not aware of what warnings are in place, but doesn't it seem reasonable to think that a full self driving system could fully self drive the car? Perhaps it is Tesla who is lying if the car is not capable of driving itself fully?
  - qsdf38100 2y ago
    This "Full Self Driving" thing is absurd. It should already be illegal to sell "Self Driving" cars that are 0% responsible for any crash. But Elon thought it wasn’t enough and decided to go Full Hypocrisy and called it "Full Self Driving". What a joke.
- sorokod 2y ago
  I guess that the outcomes of these lawsuits will tell. I'd phrase your question differently though: how much responsibility does Tesla have in selling a mass consumer product that allows consumers to be irresponsible and negligent in a friction-less manner.

exe34 2y ago

Schrödinger's autopilot. It's fully self-driving when you're paying for it, but it's all your fault when it crashes.

nothercastle 2y ago

I think it should be partial Tesla responsibility. If you are L2/5 then it’s 40% teslas 60% driver

nicklecompte 2y ago
The claim is not really based on Tesla's technology - the problem is Tesla's dishonest advertising and Elon Musk being an unethical idiot. Your rule makes some sense as a guideline, but it only works in the case where the driver and the auto manufacturer are doing the right thing yet something goes wrong. It does not work if the driver was watching YouTube instead of paying attention, and it does not work if the manufacturer routinely advertises a L2 system as having L4 capabilities. Even the names "Autopiliot" and "Full-Self Driving" are misleading. IMO its so misleading that Musk deserves to go to jail.

georgeplusplus 2y ago

I’m in the ballpark you are given warning that you must be in control at all times. It’s not a multi page agreement it’s a simple and direct message that anyone should be able to digest. Send people back to the DMV and make them take a self driving technologies endorsement before enabling it on the vehicle. So the people that want to cater to the lowest common denominator of stupidity can really feel the effects of what that feels like.

JoeAltmaier 2y ago
Then what use self-driving? If you're poised to take over at any moment, it's providing nothing. No, the very act of promoting self-driving creates some kind of expectation that the human isn't doing the driving. Right? That seems like a simple, direct message that anyone should be able to digest.
- georgeplusplus 2y ago
  I disagree it’s well understood L2 requires human intervention. Sounds like you have higher expectations of the capabilities than what the system offers. It’s an assist. That’s it. Whether it’s driving or not isn’t the focus here it’s the expectation of who has ultimate control. The driver.
  - dehugger 2y ago
    Nothing screams "it's an assist; that's it" like "full self driving".
    - georgeplusplus 2y ago
      Where does it say it’s “full self driving”? “Autopilot is a hands-on driver assistance system that is intended to be used only with a fully attentive driver. It does not turn a Tesla into a self-driving vehicle nor does it make a vehicle autonomous.” https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#:~:text=Do%20I%20still%20need%20to,it%20make%20a%20vehicle%20autonomous https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#:~:text=Do%20I%20sti....

JoeAltmaier 2y ago

The 'self-driving' feature is as least an attractive nuisance. They want to press their point (that drivers are responsible) it's simple: disable the self-driving feature.