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'Pirate' though, that one sounds cool so we'll accept it. Seriously? They are implying by that greeting that it is not them who would label you as such a thing.

'Pirate' though, that one sounds cool so we'll accept it. Seriously? They are implying by that greeting that it is not them who would label you as such a thing. Moreover it sounds like they've had it up to here with the major labels and distribution outlets who would call you an actual criminal and mean it. Also, don't kid yourself. It is a crime (morally wrong, if not outright encoded in law) to download someone else's work for free so that you can enjoy it without paying a dime to anyone (even the artist), unless they're giving it away. You don't even see that page unless you tried to acquire their artists' work for free.

tomp 14y ago
> morally wrong, if not outright encoded in law I'd say exactly the oposite. It's illegal (= prohibited by law), but might not be morally wrong - I don't feel bad for downloading movies/music when any of the following are met: (i) the content is not readily available (e.g. movies right after release, movies and music in non-G6 countries) (ii) the content is of shitty quality or atmosphere (e.g. low bitrate, CDs, cinemas) (iii) I would not pay for content (i.e. even if it were readily available in supreme quality, I would rather not have it than buy it) (e.g. albums that I'm not sure are good).
- coderdude 14y ago
  This is where most people really start to bicker about this issue. There is the group that understands that it is morally wrong to steal, and then there is the group that does mental gymnastics to get out of "feeling bad" about it or to otherwise justify it somehow. You even end it with "I would not pay for content [...]." If that isn't outright just saying "yeah I steal and I don't care" then I don't know what is.
  - tomp 14y ago
    I guess the issue is elsewhere - there is a group of people that think that copying is the same as stealing, and there is the group that can see the difference. I belong to the second group. Let me try to explain it to you... Would you rather that I stole your car, or just copy it?
    - coderdude 14y ago
      That doesn't even make sense. Stealing is stealing regardless of whether it's something physical or something digital. Just because humans invented a new way for things to exist doesn't mean that products in that form aren't being stolen when you acquire them for free by downloading them off the The Pirate Bay.
      - tomp 14y ago
        Hm... Even assuming that I agreed with you assertion, you're making a lousy argument. First, you're attacking me/my intellect. Then, you make an assertion without providing even the slightest proof/argument for it (I'm not a native English speaker, but I'd say that the dictionary definition of stealing disagrees with you), and you're ignoring my real argument completely (i.e. that copying is different from depriving someone of a physical item which I just called "stealing"). Lastly, humans didn't just invent a new way for things to exist, humans also invented concepts such as property and intellectual property. The last one is actually quite new! So, stealing is a concept that is completely defined by the society, and I think it's in our best interest to talk about it, discuss how we should define it in the future.
    - sritch 14y ago
      The comparison is flawed. The theft is not of the physical product, but of the proceeds or profits.
      - Falling3 14y ago
        And if you download something that you: are incapable of attaining due to geographical or other limiting factors, will buy after reviewing, or have 0 chance of buying or viewing/listening otherwise... where is the loss of profits?
      - tomp 14y ago
        > The theft is not of the physical product, but of the proceeds or profits. Only assuming that I would otherwise (if I hadn't copied it) pay. Which is often a false premise. Especially for people like me, who simply cannot pay, even if we want to (I don't live in the US, so much of the online content isn't available to me). I agree that not paying sometimes is stealing. E.g. when you don't pay a masseuse/prostituta after they have delivered their service. But, that is a completely different situation (you agreed to a exchange time<-->money, then you essentially broke the contract). Car stealing/copying is the best comparison I could think of. Maybe a better one would be, stealing a car from the company that makes it, vs. building an exact copy at home. The second one might be objectionable (infringing of patents & copyright), but they are most certainly not the same. I hope this clarifies my earlier argument a bit.
  - rohansingh 14y ago
    Copyright infringement and theft are not the same thing. Using the word "steal" confuses the issue. When something is stolen, the owner no longer has it. This is not the case with copyright infringement. This may or may not be morally right or wrong in certain situations. But it is definitely different than "stealing", and just applying our same moral and ethical precepts about theft to copyright infringement does not work. They are fundamentally different and must be considered separately.
- jasonlotito 14y ago
  The problem with this line of thinking is that you are, in a way, supporting the efforts of people that produce a inferior product. By downloading and using the inferior product, you aren't supporting products that do meet your needs, but might not be as popular. So, stop supporting these products, and instead, support products that are meeting your needs.
Symmetry 14y ago
It is a crime (morally wrong, if not outright encoded in law) to download someone else's work for free Other people have gotten into moral arguments here, and I'll leave them to it, but I should point out that downloading a file is not, legally speaking, a crime. Its not a felony, its not even a misdemeanor. Its just a civil infraction. Just like breaking the speed limit isn't a crime[1]. [1]Well, if you exceed it by 20 mph where I grew up it becomes "criminal speeding", a misdemeanor. EDIT: I wonder if we wouldn't all be better of if we started talking about copyright infringement as "trespass" rather than "theft". You are, legally speaking, trespassing on someone's copyright when you pirate an mp3, and it nicely conveys that people are doing something wrong that isn't as wrong as a felony like stealing.

tomp 14y ago

> morally wrong, if not outright encoded in law I'd say exactly the oposite. It's illegal (= prohibited by law), but might not be morally wrong - I don't feel bad for downloading movies/music when any of the following are met: (i) the content is not readily available (e.g. movies right after release, movies and music in non-G6 countries) (ii) the content is of shitty quality or atmosphere (e.g. low bitrate, CDs, cinemas) (iii) I would not pay for content (i.e. even if it were readily available in supreme quality, I would rather not have it than buy it) (e.g. albums that I'm not sure are good).

coderdude 14y ago
This is where most people really start to bicker about this issue. There is the group that understands that it is morally wrong to steal, and then there is the group that does mental gymnastics to get out of "feeling bad" about it or to otherwise justify it somehow. You even end it with "I would not pay for content [...]." If that isn't outright just saying "yeah I steal and I don't care" then I don't know what is.
- tomp 14y ago
  I guess the issue is elsewhere - there is a group of people that think that copying is the same as stealing, and there is the group that can see the difference. I belong to the second group. Let me try to explain it to you... Would you rather that I stole your car, or just copy it?
  - coderdude 14y ago
    That doesn't even make sense. Stealing is stealing regardless of whether it's something physical or something digital. Just because humans invented a new way for things to exist doesn't mean that products in that form aren't being stolen when you acquire them for free by downloading them off the The Pirate Bay.
    - tomp 14y ago
      Hm... Even assuming that I agreed with you assertion, you're making a lousy argument. First, you're attacking me/my intellect. Then, you make an assertion without providing even the slightest proof/argument for it (I'm not a native English speaker, but I'd say that the dictionary definition of stealing disagrees with you), and you're ignoring my real argument completely (i.e. that copying is different from depriving someone of a physical item which I just called "stealing"). Lastly, humans didn't just invent a new way for things to exist, humans also invented concepts such as property and intellectual property. The last one is actually quite new! So, stealing is a concept that is completely defined by the society, and I think it's in our best interest to talk about it, discuss how we should define it in the future.
  - sritch 14y ago
    The comparison is flawed. The theft is not of the physical product, but of the proceeds or profits.
    - Falling3 14y ago
      And if you download something that you: are incapable of attaining due to geographical or other limiting factors, will buy after reviewing, or have 0 chance of buying or viewing/listening otherwise... where is the loss of profits?
    - tomp 14y ago
      > The theft is not of the physical product, but of the proceeds or profits. Only assuming that I would otherwise (if I hadn't copied it) pay. Which is often a false premise. Especially for people like me, who simply cannot pay, even if we want to (I don't live in the US, so much of the online content isn't available to me). I agree that not paying sometimes is stealing. E.g. when you don't pay a masseuse/prostituta after they have delivered their service. But, that is a completely different situation (you agreed to a exchange time<-->money, then you essentially broke the contract). Car stealing/copying is the best comparison I could think of. Maybe a better one would be, stealing a car from the company that makes it, vs. building an exact copy at home. The second one might be objectionable (infringing of patents & copyright), but they are most certainly not the same. I hope this clarifies my earlier argument a bit.
- rohansingh 14y ago
  Copyright infringement and theft are not the same thing. Using the word "steal" confuses the issue. When something is stolen, the owner no longer has it. This is not the case with copyright infringement. This may or may not be morally right or wrong in certain situations. But it is definitely different than "stealing", and just applying our same moral and ethical precepts about theft to copyright infringement does not work. They are fundamentally different and must be considered separately.
jasonlotito 14y ago
The problem with this line of thinking is that you are, in a way, supporting the efforts of people that produce a inferior product. By downloading and using the inferior product, you aren't supporting products that do meet your needs, but might not be as popular. So, stop supporting these products, and instead, support products that are meeting your needs.

Symmetry 14y ago

It is a crime (morally wrong, if not outright encoded in law) to download someone else's work for free Other people have gotten into moral arguments here, and I'll leave them to it, but I should point out that downloading a file is not, legally speaking, a crime. Its not a felony, its not even a misdemeanor. Its just a civil infraction. Just like breaking the speed limit isn't a crime[1]. [1]Well, if you exceed it by 20 mph where I grew up it becomes "criminal speeding", a misdemeanor. EDIT: I wonder if we wouldn't all be better of if we started talking about copyright infringement as "trespass" rather than "theft". You are, legally speaking, trespassing on someone's copyright when you pirate an mp3, and it nicely conveys that people are doing something wrong that isn't as wrong as a felony like stealing.