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How how how does a fairly selective and educated group such as HN users come to believe such collectivist nonsense. What a failure of education systems we have.

How how how does a fairly selective and educated group such as HN users come to believe such collectivist nonsense. What a failure of education systems we have. Unbelievable. History has shown repeatedly that policies to restrict free markets and centrally plan makes everyone poorer and produces catastrophic results. There is absolutely NOTHING immoral about being a landlord or a real estate developer. People need housing but cannot afford to build it themselves. Capitalists take capital they and create housing for people who need housing. This is a fundamental service to the economy and society. A necessary service. It’s simply foolish to have this view that landlords are unethical. It’s been shown over and over and over that high housing prices are a result of restrictive supply caused by government regulations and that without such restrictions and regulations landlords and real estate investors LOWER housing prices this is a fundamental fact of economics!

greenie_beans 2y ago
not OP, but your personal attacks don't engage with their ideas at all. and you also stated a strong opinion masquerading as fact.
- alchemist1e9 2y ago
  No Capitalism is the greatest force for the improvement of the human condition known. That’s a fact and the problem is you have somehow been taught it’s only an opinion. It’s not, it’s an unambiguous empirical fact.
  - andrewstuart 2y ago
    It's the socialism for the rich that ruins it. Tax breaks for property investors, tax incentives for property developers, handing large swatches of public owned land over the mates of the politicians for virtually nothing, selling houses to foreign buyers, selling houses to global money laundering criminal. All to pump up the value of the housing portfolios owned by the politicians. Whenever anyone says "let the market sort it out" I cheer and say "finally, the rich will stop getting their socialist handouts". If that is your capitalist market economics then you might need to rethink how pure it is.
    - rokkitmensch 2y ago
      People love to blame "capitalism" because they've never learned about "regulatory capture". There's a missing perspective on the global governance bodies, that everything is born, matures, ossifies, is outcompeted, and dies. Alligators and cockroaches perhaps the exception, but are those models for a life well lived?
      - toastercat 2y ago
        To be fair, people blame "socialism", and "communism" for similar reasons.
        rokkitmensch 2y ago
        To be fair (to be faairrrrr), Communism's embedded contradictions flamed it out significantly faster than capitalisms has.
        toastercat 2y ago
        To be fair, (to be faaaaiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrr) that's besides the point, and every successful capitalist nation routinely contradicts free-market principles anyway.
  - greenie_beans 2y ago
    prove that it's a fact? you aren't making a convincing case.
    - alchemist1e9 2y ago
      Speech worth fully listening to: https://youtu.be/h8s_z-jaexk https://youtu.be/h8s_z-jaexk And also we can look at the cases where collectivism replaces capitalism and the catastrophic consequences that inevitably occur: https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-that-never-dies/ https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-th...
      - greenie_beans 2y ago
        i'll check out and will consider it in good faith, thanks for sharing. my knee jerk reaction: > And also we can look at the cases where collectivism replaces capitalism and the catastrophic consequences that inevitably occur: at a glance, that book ignores the role the US played in these country's downfalls, particularly in south and central america. why is the US so afraid of a different system that they interfere with cuba and venezuela — i thought capitalism was the greatest system and could never be beat? oh that's right, it needs to kill any dissent in order to survive. do you ever consider all of the suffering that the US inflicts on other countries in the name of freedom and capitalism, to this very day, happening right this very minute? it's true, the USSR created a lot of suffering, but looking at the chapter intros, that book doesn't seem to consider the contribution of the authoritarian governments had in the suffering. instead it blames the economic system. nor does it cover the diversity of political opinion that led to the establishment of the USSR, most of which was quickly silenced (aka executed). imo, the USSR's problems were much like what's happening in the developed capitalist countries right now. american capitalism is a centralized economy controlled by few people with the power of the government, just like the USSR. i'm not talking about small business here, i'm talking about corporate capitalism that controls the federal government and all of the commerce, what we eat, where we get our energy, etc. very centralized. (aside, wouldn't it be amazing if the small businesses had as much power?) and regardless of how you define the USSR's economic system (an authoritarian government can never be socialist, as socialism is a democratic system by definition), we can agree that the USSR was not capitalism, yet it's responsible for some of the technological gains of the 20th century. capitalist dogma lead us to believe that the 20th century changes were only because of capitalism, but that's simply untrue. if capitalism is responsible for all of the technological changes, then how were the soviets able to reach space first? lastly, neoliberal propaganda from the world economic forum isn't a good source for an argument imo. and who said that socialism is the only alternative? regardless, your sources conveniently ignore countries with democratic socialism that are thriving. (queue: "tHaT'S nOt SoCiAlIsM!!!!" arguments...)
FredPret 2y ago
The problem is that long division and poetry is a requirement but economics isn’t. And even when it is, the teachers skew so strongly leftward, kids don’t get a balanced view. Ideally teachers and professors would go back to being 50/50 left/right, like how it used to be in the days before the Soviets started their global mindgames.
- toastercat 2y ago
  I grew up in the US and was in high school 10 years ago. Economics was required for me, and if anything, my teachers skewed right-wing. In fact, being "left-wing" largely meant being pro gay/womens/colored rights, but still neo-liberal. I still get that sense from most Dems I meet, so I don't really get this Soviet mindgame speak. Also, in what era were all teachers and professors 50/50 left/right wing?
  - FredPret 2y ago
    I’ve never met a conservative teacher. Here’s some (probably low quality) data that confirms that idea: https://verdantlabs.com/politics_of_professions/ https://verdantlabs.com/politics_of_professions/ Here’s an article about how college professors used to be much more Republican: https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappearing-conservative-professor https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappea... Here’s one about Russian infiltration of a Western uni: https://www.propublica.org/article/why-russian-spies-really-like-american-universities https://www.propublica.org/article/why-russian-spies-really-... Admittedly that last one does not describe an infiltration on the scale I’m talking about. But my thing happened around the 1920’s - 1930’s. Just look at all the Confucian Institutes on campuses and academics getting into trouble for illegal ties to China. If you’re an ideological enemy of the West and seek to undermine it in the long term, this slow infiltration of the teaching institutions is exactly what you would do.
    - toastercat 2y ago
      > I’ve never met a conservative teacher. This probably depends where you went to school. I'm from South Florida where there is a large Cuban population. > Here’s an article about how college professors used to be much more Republican: https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappea https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappea... Thanks for the article. It's a bit of a goofy partisan piece though, and provides some hand-wavy conjecture like, "It is unclear why elite research institutions have been untouched by these changes, though it is possible that these institutions use less-politicized criteria when selecting faculty, and thus make it easier for talented conservative scholars to find jobs." The article never explains what criteria. It also makes funny statements like "if one wants to be exposed to a broad spectrum of political ideas, it is still far better to attend Notre Dame or Baylor than Berkeley or Cornell" Because... more faculty are Republican? Does the American two-party system accurately represent the wide spectrum of political thought? You seem to be implying that the rise in liberal professors/teachers is a result of covert infiltration of American universities that is brainwashing students and faculty. I find it more likely that less conservatives want to be teachers/professors than liberals do in the first place.
rokkitmensch 2y ago
Well he's from Australia, the same country that's attempting global content takedowns vs. Twitter.
- toastercat 2y ago
  What do you mean? That all Australians are pro-content takedowns?
  - rokkitmensch 2y ago
    Just that there's something in the water there. In fairness, there's plenty in the water most places.
    - toastercat 2y ago
      In fairness, (in faaaaaaaaaairrrrrrrrrrnesssssssss), that's pretty based of you to say, my epic ftw homie. :^) You just rekt that libtard Aussie.
toastercat 2y ago
Genuine question: is there a golden child example for unbridled capitalism free of regulation, taxes and central planning that we can point to?

greenie_beans 2y ago

not OP, but your personal attacks don't engage with their ideas at all. and you also stated a strong opinion masquerading as fact.

alchemist1e9 2y ago
No Capitalism is the greatest force for the improvement of the human condition known. That’s a fact and the problem is you have somehow been taught it’s only an opinion. It’s not, it’s an unambiguous empirical fact.
- andrewstuart 2y ago
  It's the socialism for the rich that ruins it. Tax breaks for property investors, tax incentives for property developers, handing large swatches of public owned land over the mates of the politicians for virtually nothing, selling houses to foreign buyers, selling houses to global money laundering criminal. All to pump up the value of the housing portfolios owned by the politicians. Whenever anyone says "let the market sort it out" I cheer and say "finally, the rich will stop getting their socialist handouts". If that is your capitalist market economics then you might need to rethink how pure it is.
  - rokkitmensch 2y ago
    People love to blame "capitalism" because they've never learned about "regulatory capture". There's a missing perspective on the global governance bodies, that everything is born, matures, ossifies, is outcompeted, and dies. Alligators and cockroaches perhaps the exception, but are those models for a life well lived?
    - toastercat 2y ago
      To be fair, people blame "socialism", and "communism" for similar reasons.
      - rokkitmensch 2y ago
        To be fair (to be faairrrrr), Communism's embedded contradictions flamed it out significantly faster than capitalisms has.
        toastercat 2y ago
        To be fair, (to be faaaaiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrr) that's besides the point, and every successful capitalist nation routinely contradicts free-market principles anyway.
- greenie_beans 2y ago
  prove that it's a fact? you aren't making a convincing case.
  - alchemist1e9 2y ago
    Speech worth fully listening to: https://youtu.be/h8s_z-jaexk https://youtu.be/h8s_z-jaexk And also we can look at the cases where collectivism replaces capitalism and the catastrophic consequences that inevitably occur: https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-that-never-dies/ https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-th...
    - greenie_beans 2y ago
      i'll check out and will consider it in good faith, thanks for sharing. my knee jerk reaction: > And also we can look at the cases where collectivism replaces capitalism and the catastrophic consequences that inevitably occur: at a glance, that book ignores the role the US played in these country's downfalls, particularly in south and central america. why is the US so afraid of a different system that they interfere with cuba and venezuela — i thought capitalism was the greatest system and could never be beat? oh that's right, it needs to kill any dissent in order to survive. do you ever consider all of the suffering that the US inflicts on other countries in the name of freedom and capitalism, to this very day, happening right this very minute? it's true, the USSR created a lot of suffering, but looking at the chapter intros, that book doesn't seem to consider the contribution of the authoritarian governments had in the suffering. instead it blames the economic system. nor does it cover the diversity of political opinion that led to the establishment of the USSR, most of which was quickly silenced (aka executed). imo, the USSR's problems were much like what's happening in the developed capitalist countries right now. american capitalism is a centralized economy controlled by few people with the power of the government, just like the USSR. i'm not talking about small business here, i'm talking about corporate capitalism that controls the federal government and all of the commerce, what we eat, where we get our energy, etc. very centralized. (aside, wouldn't it be amazing if the small businesses had as much power?) and regardless of how you define the USSR's economic system (an authoritarian government can never be socialist, as socialism is a democratic system by definition), we can agree that the USSR was not capitalism, yet it's responsible for some of the technological gains of the 20th century. capitalist dogma lead us to believe that the 20th century changes were only because of capitalism, but that's simply untrue. if capitalism is responsible for all of the technological changes, then how were the soviets able to reach space first? lastly, neoliberal propaganda from the world economic forum isn't a good source for an argument imo. and who said that socialism is the only alternative? regardless, your sources conveniently ignore countries with democratic socialism that are thriving. (queue: "tHaT'S nOt SoCiAlIsM!!!!" arguments...)

FredPret 2y ago

The problem is that long division and poetry is a requirement but economics isn’t. And even when it is, the teachers skew so strongly leftward, kids don’t get a balanced view. Ideally teachers and professors would go back to being 50/50 left/right, like how it used to be in the days before the Soviets started their global mindgames.

toastercat 2y ago
I grew up in the US and was in high school 10 years ago. Economics was required for me, and if anything, my teachers skewed right-wing. In fact, being "left-wing" largely meant being pro gay/womens/colored rights, but still neo-liberal. I still get that sense from most Dems I meet, so I don't really get this Soviet mindgame speak. Also, in what era were all teachers and professors 50/50 left/right wing?
- FredPret 2y ago
  I’ve never met a conservative teacher. Here’s some (probably low quality) data that confirms that idea: https://verdantlabs.com/politics_of_professions/ https://verdantlabs.com/politics_of_professions/ Here’s an article about how college professors used to be much more Republican: https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappearing-conservative-professor https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappea... Here’s one about Russian infiltration of a Western uni: https://www.propublica.org/article/why-russian-spies-really-like-american-universities https://www.propublica.org/article/why-russian-spies-really-... Admittedly that last one does not describe an infiltration on the scale I’m talking about. But my thing happened around the 1920’s - 1930’s. Just look at all the Confucian Institutes on campuses and academics getting into trouble for illegal ties to China. If you’re an ideological enemy of the West and seek to undermine it in the long term, this slow infiltration of the teaching institutions is exactly what you would do.
  - toastercat 2y ago
    > I’ve never met a conservative teacher. This probably depends where you went to school. I'm from South Florida where there is a large Cuban population. > Here’s an article about how college professors used to be much more Republican: https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappea https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappea... Thanks for the article. It's a bit of a goofy partisan piece though, and provides some hand-wavy conjecture like, "It is unclear why elite research institutions have been untouched by these changes, though it is possible that these institutions use less-politicized criteria when selecting faculty, and thus make it easier for talented conservative scholars to find jobs." The article never explains what criteria. It also makes funny statements like "if one wants to be exposed to a broad spectrum of political ideas, it is still far better to attend Notre Dame or Baylor than Berkeley or Cornell" Because... more faculty are Republican? Does the American two-party system accurately represent the wide spectrum of political thought? You seem to be implying that the rise in liberal professors/teachers is a result of covert infiltration of American universities that is brainwashing students and faculty. I find it more likely that less conservatives want to be teachers/professors than liberals do in the first place.

rokkitmensch 2y ago

Well he's from Australia, the same country that's attempting global content takedowns vs. Twitter.

toastercat 2y ago
What do you mean? That all Australians are pro-content takedowns?
- rokkitmensch 2y ago
  Just that there's something in the water there. In fairness, there's plenty in the water most places.
  - toastercat 2y ago
    In fairness, (in faaaaaaaaaairrrrrrrrrrnesssssssss), that's pretty based of you to say, my epic ftw homie. :^) You just rekt that libtard Aussie.

toastercat 2y ago

Genuine question: is there a golden child example for unbridled capitalism free of regulation, taxes and central planning that we can point to?