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My understanding is that these days clothing is so cheap that there really isn't a lot of people who lack clothing anymore. Even in the poorest corners of the w

My understanding is that these days clothing is so cheap that there really isn't a lot of people who lack clothing anymore. Even in the poorest corners of the world, people have a few sets of clothing and maybe even shoes. This is huge progress compared to the old days, when many people only had one set of clothes, and had to wash them naked. If the price for this is a lot of clothing trash, that seems a pretty great bargain to me.

tomjen3 3y ago
Truely yes, but I don't think it helps any more. The problem with most of the fast fashion is that the clothes don't last very long, at only a handful of uses, so its only cheaper if you need lots of different outfits. If you are hanging on by a thread, then you need cheap outfits that last for as long as possible.
- the-grump 3y ago
  This claim is often repeated, but what I buy from H&M lasts years and years.
  - jshorty 3y ago
    Are you using them regularly in physical labor though?
    - peebeebee 3y ago
      I must say: things from H&M hm have regularly been holding up longer than other way more expensive brands. Sometimes they don’t really fit right anymore, but no holes or stitches that come loose.
  - usrusr 3y ago
    So many years in my case that I'm really not sure that the counter would still hold.
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    Yep, and "fast fashion" originally meant quickly copying catwalk trends and getting them to consumers quickly. It's now somehow morphed into meaning clothes that are quickly thrown out but without anyone actually demonstrating that is actually happening.
    - bennyhill 3y ago
      > quickly copying catwalk trends and getting them to consumers quickly That's not much morphing, the goal is to have clothes that are quickly obsoleted for people who can now immediately keep up with the trends. Those people can be a minority of their customers but buy far more by volume, don't wear clothes until they wear out, and need to dispose of out-of-date clothes. If they push enough consumers to fast fashion then there is a vast excess of used clothes that need to be thrown out.
  - padjo 3y ago
    What about Primark?
  - dan-robertson 3y ago
    The claim about fast fashion not lasting long is not necessarily about quality or durability. It’s more that the business model is about chasing short-lived trends such that the clothes are thrown out by stores or consumers after a short time because the trends they were following passed.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Depends on what they are. I don't buy most fashion things. Sure, I have a few nicer pieces of clothes for special events where I'm expected to dress up. But most of my stuff is budget/practical and lasts a long time. I have a winter coat over 20 years old and even my good suit is over 12 years old (re-tailored). Shoes tend to wear out the fastest since worn out insoles can lead to medical issues rather quickly. However, some shoes can be extended with replacement insoles.
  - vasco 3y ago
    Shoes last a long time, you can replace insoles.
    - oyashirochama 3y ago
      You can't really replace outsoles though, and those also wear out fairly fast
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Yes you can, any cobbler should be able to do this. Personally I do it preemtively and have an extra sole fitted to the outside when I buy new shoes.
        TeMPOraL 3y ago
        Except this usually costs around as much as a new pair. The flip side of economies of scale is that repair becomes uneconomical.
        portaouflop 3y ago
        I often hear this argument but from my personal experience it is wrong. Doing a full repair of shoes cost me like 20-40€ (soles, insides, small holes) and lasts for 3+ years. The problem is buying garbage in the first place.
- taskforcegemini 3y ago
  and I keep wearing my clothes despite the many holes they have, as long as no private bits poke out. I got laughed at by a female friend for it, so I pointed out her jeans have holes as a design choice. She did acknowledge the irony in that.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    Is there a gender based point being made here? It feels like the only reason to mention she was a woman.
    - bboygravity 3y ago
      Yes. Females buy more clothes and the cultural stereotype is that they have a better clothing taste then men generally. Also, let people tell stories however they feel like they want to tell them.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Thanks, that makes sense. It was indeed a point playing with a gender stereotype. I wonder if the woman GP was friends with would be accepted by society so readily if she put in so little effort to her clothes and appearance as he did. I doubt it, and that makes the remark a little bit uncomfortable to read honestly. I'm not sure what your last remark is meant to imply but it feels quite rude. It's normal to be curious and ask people to expand on or clarify what they're saying, especially on a site where the main posting guidline is "intellectual curiosity." I don't appreciate your directive in this case, as I don't feel I was blocking anyone from sharing their story with the question I asked. But, if we're being prescriptive, the term "women" is generally more accepted when talking about humans. "Females" is regarded by many as dehumanising.
        portaouflop 3y ago
        > I wonder if the woman GP was friends with would be accepted by society so readily I don’t think „society“ accepts an adult man who is dressed in rags either. At best people will think you’re some kind of hippie, at worst actively avoid you. In m experience does not apply if you are a student or below 30.
GeoAtreides 3y ago
That sounds like a false dilemma. Surely there are more options than just having one set of clothes or having enormous amounts of clothing waste.
- Canada 3y ago
  In order for everyone to have clothes there needs to be an oversupply of clothes. It seems a shame to burn, but I don't know if warehousing makes sense or if there would be any benefit to just leaving them in the open.
  - GeoAtreides 3y ago
    > In order for everyone to have clothes there needs to be an oversupply of clothes Not sure why that would be the case. For example, consider if everyone had as much clothes as they need. Then only occasional replacements would suffice, which is a quantity significantly less the total amount required if each person lacked sufficient clothing. Or consider some regulation: 97% of stock must remain on the shelves and sell before new stock is brought in. That will certainly put a break on fast fashion. Also, define oversupply: +1%, 10%, 50%?
    - icegreentea2 3y ago
      > For example, consider if everyone had as much clothes as they need. Then only occasional replacements would suffice The challenge is that clothes rapidly progress beyond "need" into "wants". Being "fashionable" is very roughly a human constant. One of the very very first things that we industrialized was textile and clothing production, and then we continued to keep facing fashion and clothing churn. I think it would very challenging to regulate clothing into a strict need.
      - GeoAtreides 3y ago
        That's true, people do like their fashion. But, again, it's not a choice between no fashion and ultra fast fashion (sell 10% of stock and throw away the rest). We can make clothes that are more durable, more customizable, we can have regulate how fast should fast fashion be, and, of course, regulate how waste should be treated. Btw, I bet if you throw all that waste in a chemical reactor with a hydrogen source you can revert it back to hydrocarbons. I'm not a chemical engineer and I might be wrong, of course.
padjo 3y ago
The price is also environmental destruction on a grand scale. All that cotton has to be grown somewhere.
alecst 3y ago
It’s not the bargain you think it is. These people pay a steep price to make our cheap stuff. They’re surrounded by plastic trash. And just like in the article, because there’s no waste management in these developing parts of the world, they just burn the trash to get rid of it. In any event, having all these clothes is just a part of life that we’ve gotten used to. I’ve never heard anyone complain about a lack of clothes or shoes unless they were suddenly deprived of them.
pjmlp 3y ago
As someone fortunate enough to travel around the world, I have seen enough people without shoes and stuff we could barely call clothes.
jnellis 3y ago
The litmus test on this used to be those NFL Superbowl shirts for the losing team. To facilitate quick merchandising, they would print both teams as being the superbowl champions then whichever team one, sell that t-shirt. The losing teams 'champion' shirts would pop up in photos six months to a year down the road, being worn by children in third world countries. You don't see that anymore.

tomjen3 3y ago

Truely yes, but I don't think it helps any more. The problem with most of the fast fashion is that the clothes don't last very long, at only a handful of uses, so its only cheaper if you need lots of different outfits. If you are hanging on by a thread, then you need cheap outfits that last for as long as possible.

the-grump 3y ago
This claim is often repeated, but what I buy from H&M lasts years and years.
- jshorty 3y ago
  Are you using them regularly in physical labor though?
  - peebeebee 3y ago
    I must say: things from H&M hm have regularly been holding up longer than other way more expensive brands. Sometimes they don’t really fit right anymore, but no holes or stitches that come loose.
- usrusr 3y ago
  So many years in my case that I'm really not sure that the counter would still hold.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  Yep, and "fast fashion" originally meant quickly copying catwalk trends and getting them to consumers quickly. It's now somehow morphed into meaning clothes that are quickly thrown out but without anyone actually demonstrating that is actually happening.
  - bennyhill 3y ago
    > quickly copying catwalk trends and getting them to consumers quickly That's not much morphing, the goal is to have clothes that are quickly obsoleted for people who can now immediately keep up with the trends. Those people can be a minority of their customers but buy far more by volume, don't wear clothes until they wear out, and need to dispose of out-of-date clothes. If they push enough consumers to fast fashion then there is a vast excess of used clothes that need to be thrown out.
- padjo 3y ago
  What about Primark?
- dan-robertson 3y ago
  The claim about fast fashion not lasting long is not necessarily about quality or durability. It’s more that the business model is about chasing short-lived trends such that the clothes are thrown out by stores or consumers after a short time because the trends they were following passed.
giantg2 3y ago
Depends on what they are. I don't buy most fashion things. Sure, I have a few nicer pieces of clothes for special events where I'm expected to dress up. But most of my stuff is budget/practical and lasts a long time. I have a winter coat over 20 years old and even my good suit is over 12 years old (re-tailored). Shoes tend to wear out the fastest since worn out insoles can lead to medical issues rather quickly. However, some shoes can be extended with replacement insoles.
- vasco 3y ago
  Shoes last a long time, you can replace insoles.
  - oyashirochama 3y ago
    You can't really replace outsoles though, and those also wear out fairly fast
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      Yes you can, any cobbler should be able to do this. Personally I do it preemtively and have an extra sole fitted to the outside when I buy new shoes.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        Except this usually costs around as much as a new pair. The flip side of economies of scale is that repair becomes uneconomical.
        portaouflop 3y ago
        I often hear this argument but from my personal experience it is wrong. Doing a full repair of shoes cost me like 20-40€ (soles, insides, small holes) and lasts for 3+ years. The problem is buying garbage in the first place.
taskforcegemini 3y ago
and I keep wearing my clothes despite the many holes they have, as long as no private bits poke out. I got laughed at by a female friend for it, so I pointed out her jeans have holes as a design choice. She did acknowledge the irony in that.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Is there a gender based point being made here? It feels like the only reason to mention she was a woman.
  - bboygravity 3y ago
    Yes. Females buy more clothes and the cultural stereotype is that they have a better clothing taste then men generally. Also, let people tell stories however they feel like they want to tell them.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      Thanks, that makes sense. It was indeed a point playing with a gender stereotype. I wonder if the woman GP was friends with would be accepted by society so readily if she put in so little effort to her clothes and appearance as he did. I doubt it, and that makes the remark a little bit uncomfortable to read honestly. I'm not sure what your last remark is meant to imply but it feels quite rude. It's normal to be curious and ask people to expand on or clarify what they're saying, especially on a site where the main posting guidline is "intellectual curiosity." I don't appreciate your directive in this case, as I don't feel I was blocking anyone from sharing their story with the question I asked. But, if we're being prescriptive, the term "women" is generally more accepted when talking about humans. "Females" is regarded by many as dehumanising.
      - portaouflop 3y ago
        > I wonder if the woman GP was friends with would be accepted by society so readily I don’t think „society“ accepts an adult man who is dressed in rags either. At best people will think you’re some kind of hippie, at worst actively avoid you. In m experience does not apply if you are a student or below 30.

GeoAtreides 3y ago

That sounds like a false dilemma. Surely there are more options than just having one set of clothes or having enormous amounts of clothing waste.

Canada 3y ago
In order for everyone to have clothes there needs to be an oversupply of clothes. It seems a shame to burn, but I don't know if warehousing makes sense or if there would be any benefit to just leaving them in the open.
- GeoAtreides 3y ago
  > In order for everyone to have clothes there needs to be an oversupply of clothes Not sure why that would be the case. For example, consider if everyone had as much clothes as they need. Then only occasional replacements would suffice, which is a quantity significantly less the total amount required if each person lacked sufficient clothing. Or consider some regulation: 97% of stock must remain on the shelves and sell before new stock is brought in. That will certainly put a break on fast fashion. Also, define oversupply: +1%, 10%, 50%?
  - icegreentea2 3y ago
    > For example, consider if everyone had as much clothes as they need. Then only occasional replacements would suffice The challenge is that clothes rapidly progress beyond "need" into "wants". Being "fashionable" is very roughly a human constant. One of the very very first things that we industrialized was textile and clothing production, and then we continued to keep facing fashion and clothing churn. I think it would very challenging to regulate clothing into a strict need.
    - GeoAtreides 3y ago
      That's true, people do like their fashion. But, again, it's not a choice between no fashion and ultra fast fashion (sell 10% of stock and throw away the rest). We can make clothes that are more durable, more customizable, we can have regulate how fast should fast fashion be, and, of course, regulate how waste should be treated. Btw, I bet if you throw all that waste in a chemical reactor with a hydrogen source you can revert it back to hydrocarbons. I'm not a chemical engineer and I might be wrong, of course.

padjo 3y ago

The price is also environmental destruction on a grand scale. All that cotton has to be grown somewhere.

alecst 3y ago

It’s not the bargain you think it is. These people pay a steep price to make our cheap stuff. They’re surrounded by plastic trash. And just like in the article, because there’s no waste management in these developing parts of the world, they just burn the trash to get rid of it. In any event, having all these clothes is just a part of life that we’ve gotten used to. I’ve never heard anyone complain about a lack of clothes or shoes unless they were suddenly deprived of them.

pjmlp 3y ago

As someone fortunate enough to travel around the world, I have seen enough people without shoes and stuff we could barely call clothes.

jnellis 3y ago

The litmus test on this used to be those NFL Superbowl shirts for the losing team. To facilitate quick merchandising, they would print both teams as being the superbowl champions then whichever team one, sell that t-shirt. The losing teams 'champion' shirts would pop up in photos six months to a year down the road, being worn by children in third world countries. You don't see that anymore.