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>Tesla's is really good ... >Tesla's isn't terribly expensive and is extremely frictionless... I'm sure Tesla is great, but my ICE is excellent in both those

>Tesla's is really good ... >Tesla's isn't terribly expensive and is extremely frictionless... I'm sure Tesla is great, but my ICE is excellent in both those categories and cost me 6000 Euros used in mint condition with only 4 years and 40k KM of usage. Which used Tesla can I get in that budget?

cogman10 3y ago
K. That wasn't a part of your original post. Did you want me to start debating the economics of buying EVs? If I were to advise someone for the best EV to buy, I'd probably suggest holding off for 5 or 10 more years. Even if I were suggesting a new EV to buy, I'd suggest holding off for 1 maybe 2 years in north america because everything is switching over to NACS. If we are talking about someone in the EU, I'd still probably suggest waiting a couple of years if you can, but if you can't you can probably grab a Nissan leaf for roughly that 6000 euros and that mileage. If you can wait a few more years, especially in the EU, then the used market options are going to explode. I'd probably look at some of the Chinese second hand EVs as they are already pretty cheap and will likely be super cheap used in a few years. And if you are in the EU, EVs that are roughly the same prices as an ICE are going to make a lot of financial sense because of the high petrol prices. Would I suggest someone get a Tesla today? Eh, depends. I probably will not get one for my next vehicle, but I plan on running this one into the ground (currently at 130,000 miles and I plan to keep going until something gives). In the US, I'd suggest today you take a good look at the iconiq if you are buying new. But again, in the US, I'd strongly suggest waiting for a couple of years at this moment.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  >Did you want me to start debating the economics of buying EVs? Well, EV growth and adoption is all about economics (can you afford them in your business/lifestyle to replace your ICE or not?) Herz's decision to drop EVs is about economics (is it profitable for them or not?). So yeah, Economics are very important in this discussion so why not talk about it? You pointing out Tesla, the most premium EV brand with the best chagrin network, as the competition to cheap ICEs is like telling peasants who can't afford bread that they should eat cake. EU voters aren't gonna be happy with this come 2035 if the EV market isn't full of cheap models with long range by then and we might see an exertion of the ICE life, especially since the post 2022 conditions has decimated the purchasing power and disposable income of the average European. We might have counted our chickens before they were hatched on this one. >you can probably grab a Nissan leaf for roughly that 6000 euros and that mileage Unfortunately, the Leaf's range is pitiful compared to even the most econobox ICE. And range is very important to EU buyers.
  - cogman10 3y ago
    > You pointing out Tesla, the most premium EV brand with the best chagrin network I pointed out 2 very specific aspects of tesla, the charge network and the ability to route plan with charging stops. 2 things any EV brand can pull off. And, particularly in the case of the EU, 1 thing that affects all EV brands as there are public charging access laws which mean anyone can use the tesla charging network. It's not just for the uber wealthy. I did not say or suggest in my post that "lol, the poors should just buy teslas" as you suggest. Rather, I rebutted 2 specific points you made, that you have to search for charging stations which are far apart (not true in the EU, btw) and that the charging experience is always terrible. You then went on a wild tangent about how much it costs to buy EVs, which was completely out of scope of the prior discussion and goalpost moving. > as the competition to cheap ICEs is like telling peasants who can't afford bread that they should eat cake. Like, sorry, I did not nor have I suggested that the peasants need to go out and buy EVs. Nor am I suggesting that owning one isn't something that today requires more money (as I outlined in my previous post). Owning an EV is not the right move for everyone yet every EV debate is framed as "If it's not good for everyone it's not good for anyone". > EU voters aren't gonna be happy with this come 2035 if the EV market isn't full of cheap models with long range by then. I agree. It's still a relatively young industry. My suspicion is that by 2035 things will be a lot more competitive as battery manufacturing has been growing exponentially and we are starting to see EV sales lag. Exponential growth in a supply with a lag in demand translates to lower prices. I can't predict exactly when (or if) this will happen. It's my best guess that it will. > Unfortunately, the Leaf's range is pitiful compared to even the most econobox ICE. And range is very important. Important to some, not to all. I wouldn't buy it as a primary car because range is important to me. As a secondary car, sure, it'd work great as a commuter. But again, in case you want to reframe what I'm saying in a less charitable way, I'm not saying "EVs are for everyone and everyone should own them". Nor am I saying "everyone should buy a tesla". I'm not even saying "Used EVs are fine and there's no reason why someone shouldn't buy them." We can both agree that ICE boxes aren't without their drawbacks right? We can both agree that there are pros and cons to EVs and ICE right? Or do you just want to say that there is never a good reason to buy an EV?

cogman10 3y ago

K. That wasn't a part of your original post. Did you want me to start debating the economics of buying EVs? If I were to advise someone for the best EV to buy, I'd probably suggest holding off for 5 or 10 more years. Even if I were suggesting a new EV to buy, I'd suggest holding off for 1 maybe 2 years in north america because everything is switching over to NACS. If we are talking about someone in the EU, I'd still probably suggest waiting a couple of years if you can, but if you can't you can probably grab a Nissan leaf for roughly that 6000 euros and that mileage. If you can wait a few more years, especially in the EU, then the used market options are going to explode. I'd probably look at some of the Chinese second hand EVs as they are already pretty cheap and will likely be super cheap used in a few years. And if you are in the EU, EVs that are roughly the same prices as an ICE are going to make a lot of financial sense because of the high petrol prices. Would I suggest someone get a Tesla today? Eh, depends. I probably will not get one for my next vehicle, but I plan on running this one into the ground (currently at 130,000 miles and I plan to keep going until something gives). In the US, I'd suggest today you take a good look at the iconiq if you are buying new. But again, in the US, I'd strongly suggest waiting for a couple of years at this moment.

Rinzler89 3y ago
>Did you want me to start debating the economics of buying EVs? Well, EV growth and adoption is all about economics (can you afford them in your business/lifestyle to replace your ICE or not?) Herz's decision to drop EVs is about economics (is it profitable for them or not?). So yeah, Economics are very important in this discussion so why not talk about it? You pointing out Tesla, the most premium EV brand with the best chagrin network, as the competition to cheap ICEs is like telling peasants who can't afford bread that they should eat cake. EU voters aren't gonna be happy with this come 2035 if the EV market isn't full of cheap models with long range by then and we might see an exertion of the ICE life, especially since the post 2022 conditions has decimated the purchasing power and disposable income of the average European. We might have counted our chickens before they were hatched on this one. >you can probably grab a Nissan leaf for roughly that 6000 euros and that mileage Unfortunately, the Leaf's range is pitiful compared to even the most econobox ICE. And range is very important to EU buyers.
- cogman10 3y ago
  > You pointing out Tesla, the most premium EV brand with the best chagrin network I pointed out 2 very specific aspects of tesla, the charge network and the ability to route plan with charging stops. 2 things any EV brand can pull off. And, particularly in the case of the EU, 1 thing that affects all EV brands as there are public charging access laws which mean anyone can use the tesla charging network. It's not just for the uber wealthy. I did not say or suggest in my post that "lol, the poors should just buy teslas" as you suggest. Rather, I rebutted 2 specific points you made, that you have to search for charging stations which are far apart (not true in the EU, btw) and that the charging experience is always terrible. You then went on a wild tangent about how much it costs to buy EVs, which was completely out of scope of the prior discussion and goalpost moving. > as the competition to cheap ICEs is like telling peasants who can't afford bread that they should eat cake. Like, sorry, I did not nor have I suggested that the peasants need to go out and buy EVs. Nor am I suggesting that owning one isn't something that today requires more money (as I outlined in my previous post). Owning an EV is not the right move for everyone yet every EV debate is framed as "If it's not good for everyone it's not good for anyone". > EU voters aren't gonna be happy with this come 2035 if the EV market isn't full of cheap models with long range by then. I agree. It's still a relatively young industry. My suspicion is that by 2035 things will be a lot more competitive as battery manufacturing has been growing exponentially and we are starting to see EV sales lag. Exponential growth in a supply with a lag in demand translates to lower prices. I can't predict exactly when (or if) this will happen. It's my best guess that it will. > Unfortunately, the Leaf's range is pitiful compared to even the most econobox ICE. And range is very important. Important to some, not to all. I wouldn't buy it as a primary car because range is important to me. As a secondary car, sure, it'd work great as a commuter. But again, in case you want to reframe what I'm saying in a less charitable way, I'm not saying "EVs are for everyone and everyone should own them". Nor am I saying "everyone should buy a tesla". I'm not even saying "Used EVs are fine and there's no reason why someone shouldn't buy them." We can both agree that ICE boxes aren't without their drawbacks right? We can both agree that there are pros and cons to EVs and ICE right? Or do you just want to say that there is never a good reason to buy an EV?