4 ms·

You might think twice if you looked at the figures; the numbers in this article comparing US and UK wages are astounding: https://www.wsj.com/finance/investin

You might think twice if you looked at the figures; the numbers in this article comparing US and UK wages are astounding: https://www.wsj.com/finance/investing/britain-white-collar-jobs-7a59629d https://www.wsj.com/finance/investing/britain-white-collar-j... (and this article goes into the rationale too. Basically the idea is you're paying more than you would in a developing economy, but you can trust the team with more autonomy and fewer cultural misunderstandings, so it's an option for offshoring higher-value work)

wing-_-nuts 2y ago
You know, it makes me wonder how hard it would be to use this divide to actually move to the EU and get residency. Then again, with so many countries having to beef up military spending and facing economic headwinds you really have to question whether all the social / quality of life programs that make europe more livable than the US would be sustainable long term either. Who knows maybe in 30 years Americans ultimately have a higher quality of life just due to our stronger economic position making it easier to sustainably fund M4A or whatever.
- phendrenad2 2y ago
  Military spending is a good point. If the middle class all moves to Germany, the US tax base will suffer, and probably Germany will have to raise taxes for their military to compensate. But that would take decades.
- emodendroket 2y ago
  If you work a white-collar job the US standard of living is substantially higher. If you're a laborer the opposite is true but you also probably have a harder time getting in to Europe in the first place.
  - wing-_-nuts 2y ago
    I really do wonder if our material standard of living really contributes to happiness though? I don't want more 'stuff' I want guaranteed access to healthcare. I want worker and consumer rights. I want a country that recognizes climate change is a real problem and is doing something about it. I want a more fair and representative government actually beholden to the will of the people. I don't need a McMansion, a luxury car, I want a better society. I feel like Europe, or at least the Nordics, have that, and if my parents were not here in the US, I think I'd happily move.
    - jck 2y ago
      I'm grew up in India and went to grad school in the US and worked there. Eventually, I transferred to the UK cause I didn't get through the US work visa lottery. I'm much happier here because of the reasons you mentioned. I feel like my friends in America have are basically amassing wealth to insulate their liberal bubble in a conservative land. However, they might not be able to outweath the recent success of right wing policies that the American supreme Court has managed to impose. For me personally, even the "low" tech salaries in Europe (think something like 150k an year total) is more than enough for the lifestyle I desire. If amassing wealth isn't your primary motivator, it absolutely makes sense to move to a society which better aligns with your values. That would probably be the EU for someone like you and me, but UK is EU lite. I love that everybody here has the same access to healthcare and the fact that my high taxes help that. I like that the population responds to the actions of the elected officials - like how the current UK govt is doing absolutely terribly in current polls. In the US, it seems like it's always a tight race regardless of what the government does. I love being able to use public Transit to get to most places. I'd rather my potential kids grow up in a kinder society, where their wellbeing wouldn't be at risk if something were to happen to me or my job.
      - emodendroket 2y ago
        I don't feel like the UK is in an especially strong position to look down at the US for being too conservative or doing too little for its poorer citizens but I'm glad you've found a place that suits you regardless.
        jck 2y ago
        I agree that UK isn't as left wing as I'd like, but there is really a huge difference between what's considered right wing between the UK and the US. For instance, the NHS. Poor or unemployed people get the same access to healthcare as I do. In my personal experience, there is also less stratification and less overt racism or bigotry. However, they're pioneering new and clever bigotry against trans people now and that concerns me.
crabbone 2y ago
> cultural misunderstandings It's funny that you think that being located in Europe the positions will be stuffed with Europeans... I'm in this exact situation: work for American company, while living in the EU. Am not a EU citizen (Eastern Europe / Middle East). More than half of those working with me are foreigners too. Eastern Europe, Middle East, Latin America and India would be the most common origin countries. Europe immigrates tech workers by a truckload. To reflect on the original issue. I'd guess that some manager either hated some other manager, or was looking for a promotion or was just dumb and executed some instruction in the stupidest way possible... there doesn't seem to be any apparent reason to move a team like that. Even if the team was entirely rehired in the poorest place on Earth, we are still talking about ten people. Whatever difference Google makes from the move is not even peanuts. If there's a manager being rewarded for this stupid idea, their bonus will probably be more than whatever savings this move can possibly generate. I don't believe there's any actual rational justification for this move. Just middle management being middle management.
- emodendroket 2y ago
  Whether they are or not they presumably speak English well and are familiar with anglophone culture if they’re living in the UK.
  - crabbone 2y ago
    There are many layers to "being familiar with anglo culture"... being able to understand technical documentation to a degree won't cut it in many cases. I went through several stages of learning retroactively (i.e. not appropriate to my age) through dating or having otherwise good relationships with someone from the US. So, for example, I've learned about TV shows like Daria or Dr. Who many years after they came out. (And yes, I've learned about Dr. Who from an American friend, and before that I didn't know there's a thing for more educated Americans where they think that Brits are more... refined, not sure if that's the right word). I'm married to someone born in the US, so, through her and the need of dealing with the kid who grows up primarily speaking English I've learned nursery rhymes, lullabies and a bunch of kids folklore that I would've never come in touch with in my line of work. More than that, you can perfectly well live in another country and never really know the side of life of the locals if you are never invited to visit, or don't develop very good relationships with the locals. You might never know what home-cooked food looks like because you'd only have access to store-bought or restaurant meals. (Eg. I didn't know that mac-and-cheese was such a common food in the US until I was invited to visit someone in an informal setting). And there's plenty more of it. It'd take a book to try to enumerate all of these. This both affects the less formal communication one may have with their peers as well as contributes to cultural mixups especially when it comes to customer-facing interfaces.

wing-_-nuts 2y ago

You know, it makes me wonder how hard it would be to use this divide to actually move to the EU and get residency. Then again, with so many countries having to beef up military spending and facing economic headwinds you really have to question whether all the social / quality of life programs that make europe more livable than the US would be sustainable long term either. Who knows maybe in 30 years Americans ultimately have a higher quality of life just due to our stronger economic position making it easier to sustainably fund M4A or whatever.

phendrenad2 2y ago
Military spending is a good point. If the middle class all moves to Germany, the US tax base will suffer, and probably Germany will have to raise taxes for their military to compensate. But that would take decades.
emodendroket 2y ago
If you work a white-collar job the US standard of living is substantially higher. If you're a laborer the opposite is true but you also probably have a harder time getting in to Europe in the first place.
- wing-_-nuts 2y ago
  I really do wonder if our material standard of living really contributes to happiness though? I don't want more 'stuff' I want guaranteed access to healthcare. I want worker and consumer rights. I want a country that recognizes climate change is a real problem and is doing something about it. I want a more fair and representative government actually beholden to the will of the people. I don't need a McMansion, a luxury car, I want a better society. I feel like Europe, or at least the Nordics, have that, and if my parents were not here in the US, I think I'd happily move.
  - jck 2y ago
    I'm grew up in India and went to grad school in the US and worked there. Eventually, I transferred to the UK cause I didn't get through the US work visa lottery. I'm much happier here because of the reasons you mentioned. I feel like my friends in America have are basically amassing wealth to insulate their liberal bubble in a conservative land. However, they might not be able to outweath the recent success of right wing policies that the American supreme Court has managed to impose. For me personally, even the "low" tech salaries in Europe (think something like 150k an year total) is more than enough for the lifestyle I desire. If amassing wealth isn't your primary motivator, it absolutely makes sense to move to a society which better aligns with your values. That would probably be the EU for someone like you and me, but UK is EU lite. I love that everybody here has the same access to healthcare and the fact that my high taxes help that. I like that the population responds to the actions of the elected officials - like how the current UK govt is doing absolutely terribly in current polls. In the US, it seems like it's always a tight race regardless of what the government does. I love being able to use public Transit to get to most places. I'd rather my potential kids grow up in a kinder society, where their wellbeing wouldn't be at risk if something were to happen to me or my job.
    - emodendroket 2y ago
      I don't feel like the UK is in an especially strong position to look down at the US for being too conservative or doing too little for its poorer citizens but I'm glad you've found a place that suits you regardless.
      - jck 2y ago
        I agree that UK isn't as left wing as I'd like, but there is really a huge difference between what's considered right wing between the UK and the US. For instance, the NHS. Poor or unemployed people get the same access to healthcare as I do. In my personal experience, there is also less stratification and less overt racism or bigotry. However, they're pioneering new and clever bigotry against trans people now and that concerns me.

crabbone 2y ago

> cultural misunderstandings It's funny that you think that being located in Europe the positions will be stuffed with Europeans... I'm in this exact situation: work for American company, while living in the EU. Am not a EU citizen (Eastern Europe / Middle East). More than half of those working with me are foreigners too. Eastern Europe, Middle East, Latin America and India would be the most common origin countries. Europe immigrates tech workers by a truckload. To reflect on the original issue. I'd guess that some manager either hated some other manager, or was looking for a promotion or was just dumb and executed some instruction in the stupidest way possible... there doesn't seem to be any apparent reason to move a team like that. Even if the team was entirely rehired in the poorest place on Earth, we are still talking about ten people. Whatever difference Google makes from the move is not even peanuts. If there's a manager being rewarded for this stupid idea, their bonus will probably be more than whatever savings this move can possibly generate. I don't believe there's any actual rational justification for this move. Just middle management being middle management.

emodendroket 2y ago
Whether they are or not they presumably speak English well and are familiar with anglophone culture if they’re living in the UK.
- crabbone 2y ago
  There are many layers to "being familiar with anglo culture"... being able to understand technical documentation to a degree won't cut it in many cases. I went through several stages of learning retroactively (i.e. not appropriate to my age) through dating or having otherwise good relationships with someone from the US. So, for example, I've learned about TV shows like Daria or Dr. Who many years after they came out. (And yes, I've learned about Dr. Who from an American friend, and before that I didn't know there's a thing for more educated Americans where they think that Brits are more... refined, not sure if that's the right word). I'm married to someone born in the US, so, through her and the need of dealing with the kid who grows up primarily speaking English I've learned nursery rhymes, lullabies and a bunch of kids folklore that I would've never come in touch with in my line of work. More than that, you can perfectly well live in another country and never really know the side of life of the locals if you are never invited to visit, or don't develop very good relationships with the locals. You might never know what home-cooked food looks like because you'd only have access to store-bought or restaurant meals. (Eg. I didn't know that mac-and-cheese was such a common food in the US until I was invited to visit someone in an informal setting). And there's plenty more of it. It'd take a book to try to enumerate all of these. This both affects the less formal communication one may have with their peers as well as contributes to cultural mixups especially when it comes to customer-facing interfaces.