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I’m confused as to how you think you can even “own” data to begin with. It's actually very simple. If I'm in a position to restrict access to the data, then I
by blantonl 2y ago
I’m confused as to how you think you can even “own” data to begin with.
It's actually very simple. If I'm in a position to restrict access to the data, then I own it, unless there is some legal authority that has jurisdiction over me that says I must make it available to the public.
- malwrar 2y agoOperating a website doesn't automatically put you in that position, as evidenced by the fact that scraping does not require your consent to be possible. Ultimately there's little practical difference between someone's eyes viewing information and a program viewing that same information, a copy has been made in some form. Scraping a new site takes maybe a few hours of python to accomplish, the barrier is low.
- blantonl 2y agoI don't think you understand. If I decide as the owner of a site, that I don't want you scraping my business and I block you, then I am in that position. I'm automatically in that position because I can implement the blocks necessary to uphold the the terms of use of my business, or I can just do it for arbitrary reasons. Maybe you are hammering my server. Maybe I'm in a bad mood this morning and don't like that you're using Python. I can unilaterally decide whether or not you use my business, in any way shape or form, even if I just don't like you, as long as I don't violate any laws (discrimination etc).
- malwrar 2y agoI absolutely understand, it's just not hard to make scraper traffic appear as (or be) legitimate browser traffic and/or simply distributed across numerous IPs. Other technical controls all have trivial circumvention methods. There is legal precedent (at least in the US) suggesting that scraping public information may be permissible under law (see HiQ Labs v. LinkedIn). Scrapers only ever need to succeed once. Under these circumstances, how can a website operator feel any sense of practical control over scrapers?
- what 2y agoThis is kind of a silly argument. If a physical business trespasses me for shoplifting, I can just put on a disguise and go back and shoplift more. Why do business think they have control over shoplifters?
- wolfendin 2y agoThis is kind of a silly argument, for every item you shoplift: do you ask if you can take it without paying and then get granted permission?
- icehawk 2y agoGiven that you haven't fixed your problem with scrapers (given the complaints you're making right in this thread.) It's obvious you're not in a position to restrict the data-- otherwise you'd not be complaining about scrapers, and thus you don't own it.
- what 2y agoConsidering Walgreens is still fighting shoplifters, it’s obvious they’re not in a position to restrict their merchandise. They must not own it.
- alexey-salmin 2y agoWell, exactly. blantonl claims that his ownership rights are based on his ability to restrict access to things which is not a mainstream view. Your example illustrates this nicely. Walgreens owns the goods on their shelves regardless of shoplifters.
- icehawk 2y agoI'm glad you agree with my point that Walgreens owns their merchandise not because they stop shoplifters and restrict access, its because they purchased it and have title over it, and since GP has done no such thing they don't actually own it.
- alexey-salmin 2y ago> It's actually very simple. If I'm in a position to restrict access to the data, then I own it, unless there is some legal authority that has jurisdiction over me that says I must make it available to the public. So, in which jurisdiction are you? Because in US courts have confirmed multiple times that scraping public websites is legal. https://techcrunch.com/2022/04/18/web-scraping-legal-court/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/04/18/web-scraping-legal-court/