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Also, Lydians and Phyrgians spoke IE languages and Aeolians were a Greek-speaking people themselves despite living in what is now Turkey, so none of them seem p

Also, Lydians and Phyrgians spoke IE languages and Aeolians were a Greek-speaking people themselves despite living in what is now Turkey, so none of them seem particularly "non-Western". I totally agree that there is no hard and fast line between Western and non-Western cultures, but these groups in particular don't seem particularly exotic.

marginalia_nu 3y ago
Parts of modern day Turkey was very much part of the hellenic world, at least as far as Homer is concerned. It's where you find Troy, ffs.
- im3w1l 3y ago
  Yeah someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it makes more sense to continental Europe was on the edge of the Mediterranean culture rather than saying that that the Mediterranean sea was at the edge of the European culture. And this has to do with it being faster and easier to travel on water than land back then. So it unified people rather divide.
  - marginalia_nu 3y ago
    The contemporary view of the Mediterranean is distorted by all manner of historical events that had yet to happen. The East-West Roman schism and subsequent fall of the western empire, the early Islamic conquests, and later the sprawling Ottoman empire added a lot of cultural distance between the European Mediterranean, Asia Minor and MENA that did not meaningfully exist earlier.
linearrust 3y ago
> I totally agree that there is no hard and fast line between Western and non-Western cultures There is no line because there is no western culture, civilization, values, anything. It's a political term invented for superficial political goals. Just like the idea of 'the west'. Ancient greek civilization based around the greek language, culture, religion, etc. Yes. What exactly is the language, culture, religion, etc of 'the west'. There is none. If you think there is a 'west', then try defining 'the east'. It's an artificial designation that changes depending on one's political biases.
- jhbadger 3y ago
  I wouldn't go that far. There were certainly interactions going on between cultures in Europe and the Middle East in ancient times, and Greek culture was certainly influenced by Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Persian cultures (which are often not considered "Western"), but for example China and the Americas had no direct contact with Europe until much later and developed in isolation to each other.
  - linearrust 3y ago
    > There were certainly interactions going on between cultures in Europe and the Middle East in ancient times Sure. > and Greek culture was certainly influenced by Egyptian, Mesopotamian Persian cultures (which are often not considered "Western") No doubt about it. Especially ancient egyptian civilization. The ancient greeks themselves have said so. > but for example China There was some contact, but certainly not as much between mediterranean peoples. That's obvious. > the Americas had no direct contact with Europe until much later and developed in isolation to each other. Who cares? What's your point? Your comment didn't address what I wrote. I said there is no such thing as western civilization. Just like there is no such thing as eastern civilization. Not sure what the point of your comment is.
    - jhbadger 3y ago
      >Who cares? What's your point? The point is some cultures are clearly not part of Western culture, and some (such as the pre-Columbian American ones) had absolutely no contact direct or indirect with the West until the colonial period. So it does make sense to make a distinction even if the boundaries are blurry.
      - linearrust 3y ago
        > The point is some cultures are clearly not part of Western culture That's my point. No culture belongs to 'western culture' because there is no such thing as 'western culture' or western civilization. > So it does make sense to make a distinction even if the boundaries are blurry. Yes. It does make sense to distinguish between say Egyptian civilization and Hebrew civilization and Greek civilization and Chinese civilization and Indian civilization and Mayan civilization and so forth. But there is no distinguishing 'western civilization' from anything because it simply doesn't exist. Not sure if you are being intentionally dense but my point was clear. Maybe you should go back and read my original comment that you replied to. Tell me what western civilization is. Even if the boundaries are 'blurry' try giving us the broad strokes. What is the language or culture or ethnicity or religion or customs of western civilization. It doesn't exist. That's my point.

marginalia_nu 3y ago

Parts of modern day Turkey was very much part of the hellenic world, at least as far as Homer is concerned. It's where you find Troy, ffs.

im3w1l 3y ago
Yeah someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it makes more sense to continental Europe was on the edge of the Mediterranean culture rather than saying that that the Mediterranean sea was at the edge of the European culture. And this has to do with it being faster and easier to travel on water than land back then. So it unified people rather divide.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  The contemporary view of the Mediterranean is distorted by all manner of historical events that had yet to happen. The East-West Roman schism and subsequent fall of the western empire, the early Islamic conquests, and later the sprawling Ottoman empire added a lot of cultural distance between the European Mediterranean, Asia Minor and MENA that did not meaningfully exist earlier.

linearrust 3y ago

> I totally agree that there is no hard and fast line between Western and non-Western cultures There is no line because there is no western culture, civilization, values, anything. It's a political term invented for superficial political goals. Just like the idea of 'the west'. Ancient greek civilization based around the greek language, culture, religion, etc. Yes. What exactly is the language, culture, religion, etc of 'the west'. There is none. If you think there is a 'west', then try defining 'the east'. It's an artificial designation that changes depending on one's political biases.

jhbadger 3y ago
I wouldn't go that far. There were certainly interactions going on between cultures in Europe and the Middle East in ancient times, and Greek culture was certainly influenced by Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Persian cultures (which are often not considered "Western"), but for example China and the Americas had no direct contact with Europe until much later and developed in isolation to each other.
- linearrust 3y ago
  > There were certainly interactions going on between cultures in Europe and the Middle East in ancient times Sure. > and Greek culture was certainly influenced by Egyptian, Mesopotamian Persian cultures (which are often not considered "Western") No doubt about it. Especially ancient egyptian civilization. The ancient greeks themselves have said so. > but for example China There was some contact, but certainly not as much between mediterranean peoples. That's obvious. > the Americas had no direct contact with Europe until much later and developed in isolation to each other. Who cares? What's your point? Your comment didn't address what I wrote. I said there is no such thing as western civilization. Just like there is no such thing as eastern civilization. Not sure what the point of your comment is.
  - jhbadger 3y ago
    >Who cares? What's your point? The point is some cultures are clearly not part of Western culture, and some (such as the pre-Columbian American ones) had absolutely no contact direct or indirect with the West until the colonial period. So it does make sense to make a distinction even if the boundaries are blurry.
    - linearrust 3y ago
      > The point is some cultures are clearly not part of Western culture That's my point. No culture belongs to 'western culture' because there is no such thing as 'western culture' or western civilization. > So it does make sense to make a distinction even if the boundaries are blurry. Yes. It does make sense to distinguish between say Egyptian civilization and Hebrew civilization and Greek civilization and Chinese civilization and Indian civilization and Mayan civilization and so forth. But there is no distinguishing 'western civilization' from anything because it simply doesn't exist. Not sure if you are being intentionally dense but my point was clear. Maybe you should go back and read my original comment that you replied to. Tell me what western civilization is. Even if the boundaries are 'blurry' try giving us the broad strokes. What is the language or culture or ethnicity or religion or customs of western civilization. It doesn't exist. That's my point.