3 ms·

Decriminalization has never been about compassion or freedom. It just is an easy escape from social responsibility allowing parts of the population to indulge i

Decriminalization has never been about compassion or freedom. It just is an easy escape from social responsibility allowing parts of the population to indulge into extremely detrimental behavior to themselves and others. The rest can just look away "because it is legal". Yes, alcohol is bad too. Yes, weed is bad too.

fragmede 3y ago
Alcohol criminalization didn't go so well though. The need is for a nuanced policy that recognizes that people have bad habits, vices, and addictions, and that you can't stop them from that or else they'll just do it harder, like a petulant child. But there's a difference between all alcohol must be legal all the time, and limiting sales to no hard liquor, beer and wine only at certain times. And then, what do people see as the government's role in all this. How much should be up to the government and how much should be cultural norms enforced socially?
- constantcrying 3y ago
  Yes, but clearly that was a different situation, where you had large non-addict populations still wanting to consume. With heroin there aren't any occasional users, who shoot it twice a month and are totally clean otherwise. Alcohol is bad, sure, but just because it is a socially acceptable drug, doesn't mean you should allow other drugs to become socially acceptable as well. Just because it seems near impossible to get criminalize one bad thing, doesn't mean that all other bad things should be decriminalized. In the end I don't see drug decriminalization as anything more than a political class who creates severe misery, because they are utterly unable to help with the underlying problems which push people to drug use.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    The idea that all heroin users are addicts that can't just stop has been known to be false since at least the 1970s. The heroin addicts you notice are by no means the only heroin users (nor the only addicts). One can argue over ratios, but the addiction rates for heroin are low enough it's sometimes prescribed for post op pain in the UK as an alternative to morphine.
  - tgv 3y ago
    People often fall into the trap: A is bad, but B is bad too. B is allowed, so therefore A must be allowed too. When put in this abstract way, the irrationality of it is clear. But when it's an emotionally vested topic, the lines suddenly blur. The powers-that-be are indeed unable to help with the underlying problem, but there's more to it. Politicians want to be seen as doing good. The myths surrounding good drug use have been pushed for a long time, and the combination with the prospect of the very hard task of eliminating drug trade and the social class aspect, means that for many --in particular progressives-- legalization becomes an attractive option.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    > With heroin there aren't any occasional users, who shoot it twice a month and are totally clean otherwise. There aren't?
- mcmoor 3y ago
  It'd be interesting to have further discussion beyond just parroting a flawed experiment from almost 100 years ago though. DUI has caused very high mortality, although funnily some people here will suggest that we abolish the "driving" part instead. In my country (Indonesia) where alcohol is frowned and restricted culturally, DUI rates is almost nonexistent compared to developed countries. Although we "replaced" it with sleepy driving which also caused lots of deaths, so maybe we do have to abolish driving after all.
- thinkingemote 3y ago
  The irony is that alcohol prohibition did actually work. It increased health, reduced violence in the home and on the street, increase safety for women and girls, decreased deaths and increased economic wealth amongst other benefits. It also (needless but I have to say it) increased organised crime which in the end overwhelmed the positives.
surfingdino 3y ago
Those policies never take into account that part of the population which gets affected by the drug users' behaviour. I was recently approached and threatened with extreme violence by a person who looked like he was on drugs and had an unmuzzled dangerous breed of dog with him, not on the leash. The dog was chasing after joggers and he was chasing after the dog, promising people that "if you ever follow me I'll slice ya". He picked on me too and listed the things he would do to me while his dog was too close for comfort. Central London, broad daylight. Compassion for drug addicts is a hard sell, because there are so many of them and they show no desire to change because "I'm an addict, I can't help it".

fragmede 3y ago

Alcohol criminalization didn't go so well though. The need is for a nuanced policy that recognizes that people have bad habits, vices, and addictions, and that you can't stop them from that or else they'll just do it harder, like a petulant child. But there's a difference between all alcohol must be legal all the time, and limiting sales to no hard liquor, beer and wine only at certain times. And then, what do people see as the government's role in all this. How much should be up to the government and how much should be cultural norms enforced socially?

constantcrying 3y ago
Yes, but clearly that was a different situation, where you had large non-addict populations still wanting to consume. With heroin there aren't any occasional users, who shoot it twice a month and are totally clean otherwise. Alcohol is bad, sure, but just because it is a socially acceptable drug, doesn't mean you should allow other drugs to become socially acceptable as well. Just because it seems near impossible to get criminalize one bad thing, doesn't mean that all other bad things should be decriminalized. In the end I don't see drug decriminalization as anything more than a political class who creates severe misery, because they are utterly unable to help with the underlying problems which push people to drug use.
- vidarh 3y ago
  The idea that all heroin users are addicts that can't just stop has been known to be false since at least the 1970s. The heroin addicts you notice are by no means the only heroin users (nor the only addicts). One can argue over ratios, but the addiction rates for heroin are low enough it's sometimes prescribed for post op pain in the UK as an alternative to morphine.
- tgv 3y ago
  People often fall into the trap: A is bad, but B is bad too. B is allowed, so therefore A must be allowed too. When put in this abstract way, the irrationality of it is clear. But when it's an emotionally vested topic, the lines suddenly blur. The powers-that-be are indeed unable to help with the underlying problem, but there's more to it. Politicians want to be seen as doing good. The myths surrounding good drug use have been pushed for a long time, and the combination with the prospect of the very hard task of eliminating drug trade and the social class aspect, means that for many --in particular progressives-- legalization becomes an attractive option.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  > With heroin there aren't any occasional users, who shoot it twice a month and are totally clean otherwise. There aren't?
mcmoor 3y ago
It'd be interesting to have further discussion beyond just parroting a flawed experiment from almost 100 years ago though. DUI has caused very high mortality, although funnily some people here will suggest that we abolish the "driving" part instead. In my country (Indonesia) where alcohol is frowned and restricted culturally, DUI rates is almost nonexistent compared to developed countries. Although we "replaced" it with sleepy driving which also caused lots of deaths, so maybe we do have to abolish driving after all.
thinkingemote 3y ago
The irony is that alcohol prohibition did actually work. It increased health, reduced violence in the home and on the street, increase safety for women and girls, decreased deaths and increased economic wealth amongst other benefits. It also (needless but I have to say it) increased organised crime which in the end overwhelmed the positives.

surfingdino 3y ago

Those policies never take into account that part of the population which gets affected by the drug users' behaviour. I was recently approached and threatened with extreme violence by a person who looked like he was on drugs and had an unmuzzled dangerous breed of dog with him, not on the leash. The dog was chasing after joggers and he was chasing after the dog, promising people that "if you ever follow me I'll slice ya". He picked on me too and listed the things he would do to me while his dog was too close for comfort. Central London, broad daylight. Compassion for drug addicts is a hard sell, because there are so many of them and they show no desire to change because "I'm an addict, I can't help it".