4 ms·

Agreed. I self hosted the key 100 bitcoin in like 2010. Machine crashed. Oops.

littlestymaar 3y ago
That's a fundamental problem with cryptographic security: you cannot trust people to manage your keys for you (because due to lack of regulation preventing that companies have this bad habit of pulling the rug under their customers' feet) but you cannot trust yourself doing that either, because you can, and will, make mistakes.
- pydry 3y ago
  I've always wanted a decentralized solution that lets me trust my friends instead.
  - eru 3y ago
    You can use a threshold secret sharing scheme to distribute your keys amongst your friends (and amongst companies). This way you don't need to trust any single one of your friends to be 100% honest nor 100% available.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      I know how to do that in theory (I've worked with Shamir secret sharing on elliptic curves before) but you don't have the option to do that in LUKS, so in practice you can't use it.
    - pydry 3y ago
      Thats kind of my point. you could rsync files before you could Dropbox too, but there was still a need for a Dropbox.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  My rule of thumb is if for some reason you need to use crypto keys that can't be easily replaced, you need to have a safe at the bank with the keys stored in 2 differente media formats, that are recreated every year. I don't trust many people to do that. I have everything encrypted and self hosted and I sometimes wonder what I would do if I was suffering from amnesia after an accident for example. And having a note somewhere telling me I have a safe in bank X is the only solution I have found.
  - gertop 3y ago
    > I have everything encrypted and self hosted and I sometimes wonder what I would do if I was suffering from amnesia after an accident for example. Ah! I have the exact same recurring worry, it's very unpleasant. I'd really prefer to keep home media unencrypted, but the thought of a robber seeing my tax returns or photos of my infant daughter is constantly at the back of my mind.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      > the thought of a robber seeing my tax returns or photos of my infant daughter is constantly at the back of my mind. Even worse is the eventuality of them getting their hand of a picture of your ID card or passport, or whatever they can later use to steal your identity. Identity theft is nightmare stuff.
- patrakov 3y ago
  It's worse: there are regulations (called "sanctions" and "KYC") that force companies to pull the rug.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    Idk if it's “worse” but yeah sanctions are a serious problem for the many people who happen to have family ties with the “wrong” countries.
- eru 3y ago
  > [...] you cannot trust people to manage your keys for you (because due to lack of regulation preventing that companies have this bad habit of pulling the rug under their customers' feet) [...] Huh? There's plenty of already existing legal ways to do that. Just leave your key with your lawyer or a notary, and existing regulation about fiduciary duty handle everything just fine. You can also make normal private contracts that stipulate fiduciary duties, courts will enforce those contracts just fine. As a technical alternative (or augmentation), you can also use a threshold secret sharing mechanism to store your keys amongst your friends and/or with companies. Now what you can complain about is that there is no convenient way to do all of this. And that's a very legitimate complaint! Convenience is important. However, the way to get convenience is not via regulation.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > Just leave your key with your lawyer or a notary > […] > However, the way to get convenience is not via regulation. Fun fact: the reason why giving it to your lawyer or a notary works is exactly because of regulation regarding these professions. Without regulations, there would be no such alternative.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > However, the way to get convenience is not via regulation. It is, because no company is ever going to give you the convenience you want at their own expense ;)
    - eru 3y ago
      Well, obviously the customer only gets the convenience they are willing to pay for. Competition should help keep those costs down.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        The blind faith some people have in markets and competition despite all evidence always leaves me in awe.
zarzavat 3y ago
Do you still have the hard disk? Did you attempt to recover it ?
dijit 3y ago
Sounds like you had control of your data.
remram 3y ago
Do you have machines with no backups? Why?
psd1 3y ago
Feels. I had half a bitcoin on a disk that I left alone. Forgot about it. Reinstalled the OS. Three times. I was a sysadmin for years, but the cobblers' children go barefoot.

That's a fundamental problem with cryptographic security: you cannot trust people to manage your keys for you (because due to lack of regulation preventing that companies have this bad habit of pulling the rug under their customers' feet) but you cannot trust yourself doing that either, because you can, and will, make mistakes.

pydry 3y ago
I've always wanted a decentralized solution that lets me trust my friends instead.
- eru 3y ago
  You can use a threshold secret sharing scheme to distribute your keys amongst your friends (and amongst companies). This way you don't need to trust any single one of your friends to be 100% honest nor 100% available.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    I know how to do that in theory (I've worked with Shamir secret sharing on elliptic curves before) but you don't have the option to do that in LUKS, so in practice you can't use it.
  - pydry 3y ago
    Thats kind of my point. you could rsync files before you could Dropbox too, but there was still a need for a Dropbox.
prmoustache 3y ago
My rule of thumb is if for some reason you need to use crypto keys that can't be easily replaced, you need to have a safe at the bank with the keys stored in 2 differente media formats, that are recreated every year. I don't trust many people to do that. I have everything encrypted and self hosted and I sometimes wonder what I would do if I was suffering from amnesia after an accident for example. And having a note somewhere telling me I have a safe in bank X is the only solution I have found.
- gertop 3y ago
  > I have everything encrypted and self hosted and I sometimes wonder what I would do if I was suffering from amnesia after an accident for example. Ah! I have the exact same recurring worry, it's very unpleasant. I'd really prefer to keep home media unencrypted, but the thought of a robber seeing my tax returns or photos of my infant daughter is constantly at the back of my mind.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > the thought of a robber seeing my tax returns or photos of my infant daughter is constantly at the back of my mind. Even worse is the eventuality of them getting their hand of a picture of your ID card or passport, or whatever they can later use to steal your identity. Identity theft is nightmare stuff.
patrakov 3y ago
It's worse: there are regulations (called "sanctions" and "KYC") that force companies to pull the rug.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  Idk if it's “worse” but yeah sanctions are a serious problem for the many people who happen to have family ties with the “wrong” countries.
eru 3y ago
> [...] you cannot trust people to manage your keys for you (because due to lack of regulation preventing that companies have this bad habit of pulling the rug under their customers' feet) [...] Huh? There's plenty of already existing legal ways to do that. Just leave your key with your lawyer or a notary, and existing regulation about fiduciary duty handle everything just fine. You can also make normal private contracts that stipulate fiduciary duties, courts will enforce those contracts just fine. As a technical alternative (or augmentation), you can also use a threshold secret sharing mechanism to store your keys amongst your friends and/or with companies. Now what you can complain about is that there is no convenient way to do all of this. And that's a very legitimate complaint! Convenience is important. However, the way to get convenience is not via regulation.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > Just leave your key with your lawyer or a notary > […] > However, the way to get convenience is not via regulation. Fun fact: the reason why giving it to your lawyer or a notary works is exactly because of regulation regarding these professions. Without regulations, there would be no such alternative.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > However, the way to get convenience is not via regulation. It is, because no company is ever going to give you the convenience you want at their own expense ;)
  - eru 3y ago
    Well, obviously the customer only gets the convenience they are willing to pay for. Competition should help keep those costs down.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      The blind faith some people have in markets and competition despite all evidence always leaves me in awe.

zarzavat 3y ago

Do you still have the hard disk? Did you attempt to recover it ?

dijit 3y ago

Sounds like you had control of your data.

remram 3y ago

Do you have machines with no backups? Why?

psd1 3y ago

Feels. I had half a bitcoin on a disk that I left alone. Forgot about it. Reinstalled the OS. Three times. I was a sysadmin for years, but the cobblers' children go barefoot.