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We've definitely tried the Singaporean approach for decades in the US during the war on drugs. There's people currently serving life sentences for possessing a

We've definitely tried the Singaporean approach for decades in the US during the war on drugs. There's people currently serving life sentences for possessing a meager amount of Marijuana. It turns out it's far more complicated than "just throw them in jail and the problem will fix itself." Singapore is almost the polar opposite of the US (and to a lesser extent Canada) and what works there won't necessarily work here because of that fact.

skissane 2y ago
> We've definitely tried the Singaporean approach for decades in the US during the war on drugs. There's people currently serving life sentences for possessing a meager amount of Marijuana. That’s not the Singaporean approach. The Singaporean approach is executing people for drug crimes. The US has never (to the best of my knowledge) executed anybody for a drug crime, as opposed to drug-related murders/etc. Not saying the US should emulate Singapore - I personally believe the death penalty is immoral and should be abolished - but the US has never adopted Singapore’s approach
- Sparkle-san 2y ago
  Fair enough and some how I don't think that's the missing piece here given the number of drug users and dealers we've locked away for extended periods of time.
- ashconnor 2y ago
  If life imprisonment is not a deterrent then why would the death penalty be?
  - skissane 2y ago
    I don't think anything is much of a deterrent, because that overestimates the extent to which criminals are rational agents. But there is a massive difference between life imprisonment and the death penalty – with life imprisonment, there is always the possibility of some day getting out due to a commutation, a change in the law, etc. Whereas, once someone is executed, they are dead.
  - creato 2y ago
    Many of the problematic drug users get arrested frequently, including for violent crimes. It doesn’t need to be a deterrent to “work”.
    - ashconnor 2y ago
      By that logic life imprisonment would work.
  - anon291 2y ago
    Because a good amount of people on life imprisonment end up ... leaving jail. Also, there is a quiet movement to end life sentencing in this country, including releasing people. There's no movement to 'undead' people that has any scientific merit.
- refurb 2y ago
  > The Singaporean approach is executing people for drug crimes. No, that's not the Singaporean approach. The death penalty is reserved for very few circumstances - smuggling large quantities or dealing in large quantities. 3,101 "drug abusers" were arrested in Singapore in 2023. Only a few were executed and they tend to be high profile smuggling cases. Drug users are usually sent to mandatory treatment (basically prison + drug treatment). There are plenty of users who end up getting caught several times. Even dealing in small quantities of drugs results in prison, not execution. https://www.cnb.gov.sg/docs/default-source/drug-situation-report-documents/cnb-annual-statistics-2023.pdf https://www.cnb.gov.sg/docs/default-source/drug-situation-re...
  - skissane 2y ago
    > The death penalty is reserved for very few circumstances - smuggling large quantities or dealing in large quantities. Last year, Singapore executed a woman for possessing 31 grams of heroin. [0] Who considers 31 grams of anything a large quantity? Well, in Singapore, trafficking over 30 grams of heroin is considered a "large quantity" with a mandatory death penalty – and all the prosecution has to prove is possession, once that is proved, trafficking is legally presumed. This is the amounts, possession of which gets you mandatory death penalty in Singapore: 15 grams of heroin, 30 grams of cocaine, 250 grams of meth, or 500 grams of cannabis. [1] Those amounts aren't large, they are trivial. They are kinds of quantities that small time drug dealers would possess, but large scale drug traffickers would scoff at. As of August last year, there were 50 people on death row in Singapore, and only 3 of those had been convicted of murder, the other 47 had been convicted of non-violent drug crimes. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/28/singapore-woman-execute-death-penalty-saridewi-djamani-executed https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/28/singapore-woma... [1] https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/singapore-announces-plans-to-execute-more-death-sentenced-prisoners-convicted-of-non-violent-drug-offenses https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/singapore-announces-plans-...
    - refurb 2y ago
      > Those amounts aren't large, they are trivial. Those are quantities no user would reasonably have in their possession. Even small time dealers could skirt under those numbers. Note these are counted as the "pure" amount, not like the US where they include the cuts. So 15 grams of heroin would be >1,000 doses. 250 g of meth would be 10,000 doses. And sure most of Singapore's death row are drug offenses, but Singapore has almost no crime otherwise, so comparing it to murder (<10 per year) isn't a good comparison. Singapore is very harsh for drug smuggling, but drug use or small time dealing? They do treatment and short jail sentences.
- causality0 2y ago
  You also have to actually do it and not just say you're doing it. There's no point in jailing people for marijuana possession while parts of the government are selling cocaine to generate revenue.

skissane 2y ago

> We've definitely tried the Singaporean approach for decades in the US during the war on drugs. There's people currently serving life sentences for possessing a meager amount of Marijuana. That’s not the Singaporean approach. The Singaporean approach is executing people for drug crimes. The US has never (to the best of my knowledge) executed anybody for a drug crime, as opposed to drug-related murders/etc. Not saying the US should emulate Singapore - I personally believe the death penalty is immoral and should be abolished - but the US has never adopted Singapore’s approach

Sparkle-san 2y ago
Fair enough and some how I don't think that's the missing piece here given the number of drug users and dealers we've locked away for extended periods of time.
ashconnor 2y ago
If life imprisonment is not a deterrent then why would the death penalty be?
- skissane 2y ago
  I don't think anything is much of a deterrent, because that overestimates the extent to which criminals are rational agents. But there is a massive difference between life imprisonment and the death penalty – with life imprisonment, there is always the possibility of some day getting out due to a commutation, a change in the law, etc. Whereas, once someone is executed, they are dead.
- creato 2y ago
  Many of the problematic drug users get arrested frequently, including for violent crimes. It doesn’t need to be a deterrent to “work”.
  - ashconnor 2y ago
    By that logic life imprisonment would work.
- anon291 2y ago
  Because a good amount of people on life imprisonment end up ... leaving jail. Also, there is a quiet movement to end life sentencing in this country, including releasing people. There's no movement to 'undead' people that has any scientific merit.
refurb 2y ago
> The Singaporean approach is executing people for drug crimes. No, that's not the Singaporean approach. The death penalty is reserved for very few circumstances - smuggling large quantities or dealing in large quantities. 3,101 "drug abusers" were arrested in Singapore in 2023. Only a few were executed and they tend to be high profile smuggling cases. Drug users are usually sent to mandatory treatment (basically prison + drug treatment). There are plenty of users who end up getting caught several times. Even dealing in small quantities of drugs results in prison, not execution. https://www.cnb.gov.sg/docs/default-source/drug-situation-report-documents/cnb-annual-statistics-2023.pdf https://www.cnb.gov.sg/docs/default-source/drug-situation-re...
- skissane 2y ago
  > The death penalty is reserved for very few circumstances - smuggling large quantities or dealing in large quantities. Last year, Singapore executed a woman for possessing 31 grams of heroin. [0] Who considers 31 grams of anything a large quantity? Well, in Singapore, trafficking over 30 grams of heroin is considered a "large quantity" with a mandatory death penalty – and all the prosecution has to prove is possession, once that is proved, trafficking is legally presumed. This is the amounts, possession of which gets you mandatory death penalty in Singapore: 15 grams of heroin, 30 grams of cocaine, 250 grams of meth, or 500 grams of cannabis. [1] Those amounts aren't large, they are trivial. They are kinds of quantities that small time drug dealers would possess, but large scale drug traffickers would scoff at. As of August last year, there were 50 people on death row in Singapore, and only 3 of those had been convicted of murder, the other 47 had been convicted of non-violent drug crimes. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/28/singapore-woman-execute-death-penalty-saridewi-djamani-executed https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/28/singapore-woma... [1] https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/singapore-announces-plans-to-execute-more-death-sentenced-prisoners-convicted-of-non-violent-drug-offenses https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/singapore-announces-plans-...
  - refurb 2y ago
    > Those amounts aren't large, they are trivial. Those are quantities no user would reasonably have in their possession. Even small time dealers could skirt under those numbers. Note these are counted as the "pure" amount, not like the US where they include the cuts. So 15 grams of heroin would be >1,000 doses. 250 g of meth would be 10,000 doses. And sure most of Singapore's death row are drug offenses, but Singapore has almost no crime otherwise, so comparing it to murder (<10 per year) isn't a good comparison. Singapore is very harsh for drug smuggling, but drug use or small time dealing? They do treatment and short jail sentences.
causality0 2y ago
You also have to actually do it and not just say you're doing it. There's no point in jailing people for marijuana possession while parts of the government are selling cocaine to generate revenue.