5 ms·

I'd say Rust does have that big ticket ecosystem push. Microsoft has been embracing Rust lately, with things like official Windows bindings [1]. The bigger pro

I'd say Rust does have that big ticket ecosystem push. Microsoft has been embracing Rust lately, with things like official Windows bindings [1]. The bigger problem is just inertia: large game engines are enormous. [1]: https://github.com/microsoft/windows-rs https://github.com/microsoft/windows-rs

zozbot234 2y ago
Yes, the Google folks are also funding efforts to improve Rust/C++ interop, per https://security.googleblog.com/2024/02/improving-interoperability-between-rust-and-c.html https://security.googleblog.com/2024/02/improving-interopera...
- Sn0wCoder 2y ago
  Thanks for the link. This one was also posted awhile back in a rust comment and when I first read it, I thought Google had used Rust in the V8 sandbox, but re-reading it seems that the article uses Rust as an ‘example’ of a memory safe language but does not explicitly say that it uses Rust. Maybe someone with more knowledge can confirm that Rust was (or was not) used in the V8 Google Chrome sandbox example…. https://v8.dev/blog/sandbox https://v8.dev/blog/sandbox
  - steveklabnik 2y ago
    Rust is not used in V8, to my knowledge.
meheleventyone 2y ago
I'd say the inertia is far more social than codebase size related. Right now whilst there are pockets of interest there is no broader reason to switch. Bevy as the leading contender isn't going to magic it's way to being capable of shipping AAA titles unless a studio actually adopts it. I don't think it's actually shipped a commercially successful indie game yet. Also game engines emphatically don't have to be huge. Look at Balatro shipping on Love2d.
- pcwalton 2y ago
  There are a few successful games like Tunnet [1] written in Bevy. [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2286390/Tunnet/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2286390/Tunnet/
  - meheleventyone 2y ago
    Looks cool and well received but at ~300ish reviews hardly a shining beacon if we extrapolate sales from that. But I'll say that's a good start.
    - TillE 2y ago
      Speaking as a Godot supporter, I don't think sales numbers of shipped games are relevant to anyone except the game's developer. When evaluating a newer technology, the key question is: are there any major non-obvious roadblocks? A finished game (with presumably decent performance) tells you that if there are problems, they're solvable. That's the data.
      - pcwalton 2y ago
        Agreed. We've learned a lot from Godot, by the way. I consider all us open source engines to be in it together :)
      - meheleventyone 2y ago
        Game engines are tools not fan clubs. It’s reasonable to judge them on their performance for which they are designed. As someone who cares about the commercial viability of their technology choices this is a small but positive signal. What it tells me is someone shipped something and it wasn’t awful. Props to them!
      - lelanthran 2y ago
        > A finished game (with presumably decent performance) tells you that if there are problems, they're solvable. It doesn't tell you anything about velocity, which is by far the most important metric for indie devs. After all, the studio could have expended (maybe) twice as much effort to get a result.
withinrafael 2y ago
Repo contributor here, just to curb some expectations a bit: it's one very smart guy (Kenny), his unpaid volunteer sidekick (me), and a few unpaid external contributors. (I'm trying to draw a line between those with and without commit access, hence all the edits.) There's no other internal or external Microsoft /support/ that I'm aware of. I wouldn't necessarily use it as a signal of the company's intentions at this time. That said, there are Microsoft folks working on the Rust compiler, toolchain, etc. side of things too. Maybe those are better indicators!
- heavyset_go 2y ago
  That's disappointing on Microsoft's part, because their docs make it seem like windows-rs is the way of the future. Thanks for your work, though!
  - smileson2 2y ago
    I wish Microsoft had any direction on the 'way of the future' for native apps on Windows
    - travisgriggs 2y ago
      If they did publish a “way of the future” direction, would you believe them? Fool me N times then shame on them, fool me N+1 times, then shame on me sort of thing.
      - tracker1 2y ago
        I'd have bought into MAUI if there was Linux support in the box.
      - somenameforme 2y ago
        The most infuriating thing is their habit of rebuilding things just about the time they reach a mature and highly stable state, creating an entirely new unstable and unreliable system. And then the time that system almost reaches a stable state - it's scrapped and it starts all over again. WPF -> UWP -> WinUI -> WinUI 2 -> WinUI 3 is just such a ridiculous chain. WPF was awesome, highly extensible, and could have easily and modularly been extended indefinitely - while also maintaining its widespread (if unofficial) cross platform support and just general rock solid performance/stability. Instead it's the above pattern over and over and over. And now it seems WinUI 3 is also dead, alas without even bothering with a replacement. Or maybe that's XAMARIN, wait I mean MAUI? Not entirely joking - I never bothered to follow that seemingly completely parallel system doing pretty much the same things. On the bright side this got me to finally migrate away from Microsoft UI solutions, which has made my life much more pleasant since!
jacobgorm 2y ago
So far I am way less productive in rust than in any language I've ever used for actual work, so to rewrite an entire game engine would seem like commercial suicide.
- chromatin 2y ago
  "so far" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there =) I was the same the first two times I tried to use rust (earnestly). However, one day it just "clicked" and my productivity exceeds that of almost anything else, for the specific type of work I'm doing (scientific computation)
  - vacuity 2y ago
    I think we shouldn't expect any language to lead different programmers to the same experiences. Rust has the inital steep learning curve, and after that it's a matter of taste whether one is willing to forge on and turn it into a honed tool. Also, I think it's clear that Rust excels in some fields far more naturally than in others. Making blanket statements about how Rust, or any language, is (un)productive is a disservice to everyone.

zozbot234 2y ago

Yes, the Google folks are also funding efforts to improve Rust/C++ interop, per https://security.googleblog.com/2024/02/improving-interoperability-between-rust-and-c.html https://security.googleblog.com/2024/02/improving-interopera...

Sn0wCoder 2y ago
Thanks for the link. This one was also posted awhile back in a rust comment and when I first read it, I thought Google had used Rust in the V8 sandbox, but re-reading it seems that the article uses Rust as an ‘example’ of a memory safe language but does not explicitly say that it uses Rust. Maybe someone with more knowledge can confirm that Rust was (or was not) used in the V8 Google Chrome sandbox example…. https://v8.dev/blog/sandbox https://v8.dev/blog/sandbox
- steveklabnik 2y ago
  Rust is not used in V8, to my knowledge.

meheleventyone 2y ago

I'd say the inertia is far more social than codebase size related. Right now whilst there are pockets of interest there is no broader reason to switch. Bevy as the leading contender isn't going to magic it's way to being capable of shipping AAA titles unless a studio actually adopts it. I don't think it's actually shipped a commercially successful indie game yet. Also game engines emphatically don't have to be huge. Look at Balatro shipping on Love2d.

pcwalton 2y ago
There are a few successful games like Tunnet [1] written in Bevy. [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2286390/Tunnet/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2286390/Tunnet/
- meheleventyone 2y ago
  Looks cool and well received but at ~300ish reviews hardly a shining beacon if we extrapolate sales from that. But I'll say that's a good start.
  - TillE 2y ago
    Speaking as a Godot supporter, I don't think sales numbers of shipped games are relevant to anyone except the game's developer. When evaluating a newer technology, the key question is: are there any major non-obvious roadblocks? A finished game (with presumably decent performance) tells you that if there are problems, they're solvable. That's the data.
    - pcwalton 2y ago
      Agreed. We've learned a lot from Godot, by the way. I consider all us open source engines to be in it together :)
    - meheleventyone 2y ago
      Game engines are tools not fan clubs. It’s reasonable to judge them on their performance for which they are designed. As someone who cares about the commercial viability of their technology choices this is a small but positive signal. What it tells me is someone shipped something and it wasn’t awful. Props to them!
    - lelanthran 2y ago
      > A finished game (with presumably decent performance) tells you that if there are problems, they're solvable. It doesn't tell you anything about velocity, which is by far the most important metric for indie devs. After all, the studio could have expended (maybe) twice as much effort to get a result.

withinrafael 2y ago

Repo contributor here, just to curb some expectations a bit: it's one very smart guy (Kenny), his unpaid volunteer sidekick (me), and a few unpaid external contributors. (I'm trying to draw a line between those with and without commit access, hence all the edits.) There's no other internal or external Microsoft /support/ that I'm aware of. I wouldn't necessarily use it as a signal of the company's intentions at this time. That said, there are Microsoft folks working on the Rust compiler, toolchain, etc. side of things too. Maybe those are better indicators!

heavyset_go 2y ago
That's disappointing on Microsoft's part, because their docs make it seem like windows-rs is the way of the future. Thanks for your work, though!
- smileson2 2y ago
  I wish Microsoft had any direction on the 'way of the future' for native apps on Windows
  - travisgriggs 2y ago
    If they did publish a “way of the future” direction, would you believe them? Fool me N times then shame on them, fool me N+1 times, then shame on me sort of thing.
    - tracker1 2y ago
      I'd have bought into MAUI if there was Linux support in the box.
    - somenameforme 2y ago
      The most infuriating thing is their habit of rebuilding things just about the time they reach a mature and highly stable state, creating an entirely new unstable and unreliable system. And then the time that system almost reaches a stable state - it's scrapped and it starts all over again. WPF -> UWP -> WinUI -> WinUI 2 -> WinUI 3 is just such a ridiculous chain. WPF was awesome, highly extensible, and could have easily and modularly been extended indefinitely - while also maintaining its widespread (if unofficial) cross platform support and just general rock solid performance/stability. Instead it's the above pattern over and over and over. And now it seems WinUI 3 is also dead, alas without even bothering with a replacement. Or maybe that's XAMARIN, wait I mean MAUI? Not entirely joking - I never bothered to follow that seemingly completely parallel system doing pretty much the same things. On the bright side this got me to finally migrate away from Microsoft UI solutions, which has made my life much more pleasant since!

jacobgorm 2y ago

So far I am way less productive in rust than in any language I've ever used for actual work, so to rewrite an entire game engine would seem like commercial suicide.

chromatin 2y ago
"so far" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there =) I was the same the first two times I tried to use rust (earnestly). However, one day it just "clicked" and my productivity exceeds that of almost anything else, for the specific type of work I'm doing (scientific computation)
- vacuity 2y ago
  I think we shouldn't expect any language to lead different programmers to the same experiences. Rust has the inital steep learning curve, and after that it's a matter of taste whether one is willing to forge on and turn it into a honed tool. Also, I think it's clear that Rust excels in some fields far more naturally than in others. Making blanket statements about how Rust, or any language, is (un)productive is a disservice to everyone.