4 ms·

I'd go read their mailing list and Reddit forms; especially when people run into issues doing stuff that's very simple in other languages. Never seen a more tox

I'd go read their mailing list and Reddit forms; especially when people run into issues doing stuff that's very simple in other languages. Never seen a more toxic programming community. Hopefully they calm down, or really get drown out, once there are a real number of jobs for people using Rust. Right now the evangelists outnumber the rank and file who are just using a language to get work done.

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
That does not mirror my experience.
gpm 3y ago
Rust hasn't had a mailing list for roughly a decade now...
astrange 3y ago
If it helps, they can't possibly be as toxic as Lisp programmers used to be, where more or less any online conversation would start with someone new asking a question and Erik Naggum replying that they were a moron who should die.
- cogman10 3y ago
  Lol, I had a similar example with perl as a young teen programmer. They've gotten way nicer.
- kazinator 3y ago
  Why is it that, say, C programmers, as such, don't get painted according to what has historically gone on in the comp.lang.c newsgroup?
  - astrange 3y ago
    Probably because there's so many more of them. Maybe because being called not a real UNIX programmer feels different from being called a Blub programmer.
    - kazinator 3y ago
      Maybe I should ask: why should someone interested about Lisp today have to hear stories about some Erik Naggum who posted to a Usenet newsgroup, and died 15 years ago? Let's assume that the newsgroup is important. Legendary Lisp hacker Alan Bawden posted there just last week or so. Nobody ever mentions him.
      - astrange 2y ago
        Every other one I've met in my life was nearly as unpleasant. Fewer death threats but they clearly all thought they had 200 more IQ points than you because they could write a macro. Thus the term "Lisp weenie". In this case I think people should learn from history and that specific examples are the best way to do that. It's, like, effective pedagogy or whatever. Supposedly Clojure people are nice though.
        kazinator 2y ago
        On the flip side, if you reveal to people that you are involved in Lisp, the experiences are varied. All too often you get ignorant remarks, jokes about parentheses or "contents of address register", or outright ridicule. If you say anything frank at that point, chances are good you might come off as an asshole. Just smile, nod your head, change the subject, and never return to it.
- lispm 3y ago
  "toxic" is also to generalize from one person / one forum, to an extremely diverse group, many which never used Usenet
cogman10 3y ago
I'm active on both and have not seen this behavior. In fact, my experience has been the polar opposite, the rust community has been very friendly and accepting of critique. So again, I'm going to ask for an example of rust language fanatics frothing at a criticism. If it's such a community problem this should be easy to find correct? Here's the OPs article on /r/rust and it's both got a fair number of up votes and the top comments are all really positive towards this article. That's what I've seen at typical in the rust community. https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1cdqdsi/lessons_learned_after_3_years_of_fulltime_rust/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1cdqdsi/lessons_learn...
- Capricorn2481 2y ago
  It may not be flaming, but the author brings up a particular quote repeatedly. "You just don't get it/have enough experience with it yet." I've seen this everywhere. This is an obnoxious, lazy thing to say to someone. It's a go to for many "enlightened" languages that have small ecosystems and something to prove. The only response is to ignore it entirely or, like the author did, dedicate years of your life just to see if there's something to it. This is not okay. Life is short, and we lean on other developers experience to keep us from wasting our time. If someone posts a topic wondering if X language is bad for something, it's an earnest question. Not a time to flex your dedication to the cause.

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago

That does not mirror my experience.

gpm 3y ago

Rust hasn't had a mailing list for roughly a decade now...

astrange 3y ago

If it helps, they can't possibly be as toxic as Lisp programmers used to be, where more or less any online conversation would start with someone new asking a question and Erik Naggum replying that they were a moron who should die.

cogman10 3y ago
Lol, I had a similar example with perl as a young teen programmer. They've gotten way nicer.
kazinator 3y ago
Why is it that, say, C programmers, as such, don't get painted according to what has historically gone on in the comp.lang.c newsgroup?
- astrange 3y ago
  Probably because there's so many more of them. Maybe because being called not a real UNIX programmer feels different from being called a Blub programmer.
  - kazinator 3y ago
    Maybe I should ask: why should someone interested about Lisp today have to hear stories about some Erik Naggum who posted to a Usenet newsgroup, and died 15 years ago? Let's assume that the newsgroup is important. Legendary Lisp hacker Alan Bawden posted there just last week or so. Nobody ever mentions him.
    - astrange 2y ago
      Every other one I've met in my life was nearly as unpleasant. Fewer death threats but they clearly all thought they had 200 more IQ points than you because they could write a macro. Thus the term "Lisp weenie". In this case I think people should learn from history and that specific examples are the best way to do that. It's, like, effective pedagogy or whatever. Supposedly Clojure people are nice though.
      - kazinator 2y ago
        On the flip side, if you reveal to people that you are involved in Lisp, the experiences are varied. All too often you get ignorant remarks, jokes about parentheses or "contents of address register", or outright ridicule. If you say anything frank at that point, chances are good you might come off as an asshole. Just smile, nod your head, change the subject, and never return to it.
lispm 3y ago
"toxic" is also to generalize from one person / one forum, to an extremely diverse group, many which never used Usenet

cogman10 3y ago

I'm active on both and have not seen this behavior. In fact, my experience has been the polar opposite, the rust community has been very friendly and accepting of critique. So again, I'm going to ask for an example of rust language fanatics frothing at a criticism. If it's such a community problem this should be easy to find correct? Here's the OPs article on /r/rust and it's both got a fair number of up votes and the top comments are all really positive towards this article. That's what I've seen at typical in the rust community. https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1cdqdsi/lessons_learned_after_3_years_of_fulltime_rust/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1cdqdsi/lessons_learn...

Capricorn2481 2y ago
It may not be flaming, but the author brings up a particular quote repeatedly. "You just don't get it/have enough experience with it yet." I've seen this everywhere. This is an obnoxious, lazy thing to say to someone. It's a go to for many "enlightened" languages that have small ecosystems and something to prove. The only response is to ignore it entirely or, like the author did, dedicate years of your life just to see if there's something to it. This is not okay. Life is short, and we lean on other developers experience to keep us from wasting our time. If someone posts a topic wondering if X language is bad for something, it's an earnest question. Not a time to flex your dedication to the cause.